Calculating whether 30# lift is enough in a wing

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BigTuna

Contributor
Messages
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Location
NJ
# of dives
500 - 999
I'm considering buying a BP/wing system and am confronted with judging whether a wing rated at 30# will provide enough lift. Here's the analysis I've done. I'd appreciate your taking a look and telling me if I've gone astray and where.

Here's what I think is my worst case scenario. I'm in saltwater in a 7/5 wetsuit that has 24# of bouyancy, as measured by a sink-it-in-the-bathtub test. I'm diving a full Al80 tank, which is about 2# negative, and the regulators add another 2# negative. The BP is about 5# negative. My body is essentially neutral.

Before adding any lead, my net positive buoyancy is about 24 - 2 - 2 - 5 = 15#. So to get neutral at the start of the dive I'd need to offset this with 15# of lead. I'd have to add 5# more lead for the Al80, to be sure to be negative at the end of the dive, making a total of 20# of lead. I'd wear this in two 10# ditchable pockets.

So at the start of the dive, I'd be net negative, to the tune of 5#. That's no problem for a 30# wing to support on the surface.

Suppose I had to abort without doing the dive, and that for whatever reason I had to doff the BP/wing rig. Its net buoyancy is 9# negative (BP plus regs plus Al80), which again would be no problem for the wing. Interestingly, my 24# positive wet suit ought to float me and the 20# of lead without my having to ditch anything.

OK, now let's dive the rig to 66 feet in seawater, where the pressure is 3 ATA, and let's check out the buoyancy. The tiny air cells that provide the wetsuit's buoyancy will be compressed to 1/3 their original size at this depth. So the suit's buoyancy is reduced from 24# to 8#, for a loss of 16#. Add to this the extra 5# I'm wearing for the Al80 and I find I'm 21# negative at this depth. If I had to get to the surface, the 30# wing would lift this with capacity to spare. [By the way, I'd only become an additional 2# negative if I were at 99 feet--still not a problem.]

Bottom line: I seems to me that the 30# wing should work out fine, with enough extra capacity to take care of details like hoods (positive), lights (negative), seawater density, and whatnot. I'd really appreciate your critiquing my analysis and giving me a sanity check.

By the way, here's an interesting safety observation. If the wing were to fail just as I reached my 66 foot depth, I'd have to swim the 21# negative weight to the surface (probably too heavy) or ditch some lead, either 10# or all 20#. Ditching would become a safety problem because as I ascend the wetsuit would become more and more buoyant, and I'd probably be looking at an uncontrolled ascent. Am I right about this?

Edit: Another "by the way:" If I repeat this analysis for an LP85 steel tank, it basically moves about 5# from my ditchable weights into the tank itself, leaving me with 15# of ditchable weight. I'd still be 21# negative at 66 feet. So, in an emergency, after ditching all that's ditchable, I'd remain 6# negative. That would problably be hard to swim up. I think I've discovered why people say that wetsuits with steel tanks can be a problem.
 
About to run out the door, but at first glance I noticed one thing. When I get back I'll look at it closer.

<updated>

The Al80 is +1.4 when empty (so you have to add 1.4 lbs lead for the safety stop). That means at the start of the dive, you have -4.4 for the full tank and -1.4 lead for a total of -5.8. You will be heaviest at the start of the dive and that is when you'll need the most lift (right off the boat to the deepest part of the dive when your tank is full and your suit is compressed).

Also, the rigging for a BP (webbing, rings, keepers) is another 1-2 lbs negative.

So you have -5.8 for tanks and counterweight for the air, -5 for the BP, -2 for BP rigging, -2 for regs, and -24 for the lead to counter your wetsuit (assuming full compression, the worst case). That means you are 38.8 lbs negative.

Please correct me if I made a mistake here (or my logic is out of whack).

Bryan.
 
gt3073b:
About to run out the door, but at first glance I noticed one thing. When I get back I'll look at it closer.

The Al80 is +2 when empty (so you have to add 2lbs lead for the safety stop). That means at the start of the dive, you have -2 (off the top of my head) for the full tank and -2 lead for a total of -4. You will be heaviest at the start of the dive and that is when you'll need the most lift (right off the boat to the deepest part of the dive when your tank is full and your suit is compressed).

Bryan.
Still, not a problem for a 30# wing, right?
 
BigTuna:
Edit: Another "by the way:" If I repeat this analysis for a steel tank, it basically moves about 5# from my ditchable weights into the tank itself, leaving me with 15# of ditchable weight. I'd still be 21# negative at 66 feet. So, in an emergency, after ditching all that's ditchable, I'd remain 6# negative. That would problably be hard to swim up. I think I've discovered why people say that wetsuits and steel can be a problem.
You can't swim up from 6 lbs negative? :06: I bet you can do that easily and just don't realize it.
 
If you have to take your rig off at the surface it would weight 20# (weights) + 5# (plate) + 4# (full tank and regs) = 29#, so a true 30# wing filled to the brim should still keep it afloat but it's tight. Add a few lights, maybe a canister light, or some other extra and it would sink like a rock, plus some wings listed as 30# aren't truly 30#. Of course you could remove the weights first if next to a boat, etc. but I dunno.
 
BigTuna:
OK, now let's dive the rig to 66 feet in seawater, where the pressure is 3 ATA, and let's check out the buoyancy. The tiny air cells that provide the wetsuit's buoyancy will be compressed to 1/3 their original size at this depth. So the suit's buoyancy is reduced from 24# to 8#, for a loss of 16#. Add to this the extra 5# I'm wearing for the Al80 and I find I'm 21# negative at this depth. If I had to get to the surface, the 30# wing would lift this with capacity to spare. [By the way, I'd only become an additional 2# negative if I were at 99 feet--still not a problem.]
I did some playing with neoprene in a fifteen foot pool several years ago and found that the buoyancy does not go away quite as quickly as a simple reciprocal of total pressure curve would indicate. I attribute that to the bubbles being at a slight pressure on the surface.

It is a minor point and only means a pound or two difference.
BigTuna:
Bottom line: I seems to me that the 30# wing should work out fine, with enough extra capacity to take care of details like hoods (positive), lights (negative), seawater density, and whatnot. I'd really appreciate your critiquing my analysis and giving me a sanity check.
Any restriction of the wing will cost you part of that thirty pounds. What is left may not be enough.
BigTuna:
By the way, here's an interesting safety observation. If the wing were to fail just as I reached my 66 foot depth, I'd have to swim the 21# negative weight to the surface (probably too heavy) or ditch some lead, either 10# or all 20#. Ditching would become a safety problem because as I ascend the wetsuit would become more and more buoyant, and I'd probably be looking at an uncontrolled ascent. Am I right about this?
Yes. Think about the people wearing all of their weight on a belt. Many of them can not safely ditch their weight unless at the surface.

Fortunately, in this case no decompression stops would be needed anyway.
BigTuna:
Edit: Another "by the way:" If I repeat this analysis for a steel tank, it basically moves about 5# from my ditchable weights into the tank itself, leaving me with 15# of ditchable weight. I'd still be 21# negative at 66 feet. So, in an emergency, after ditching all that's ditchable, I'd remain 6# negative. That would problably be hard to swim up. I think I've discovered why people say that wetsuits and steel can be a problem.
That is right. While swimming six pounds up would not be an issue, keeping that six pounds on the surface while swimming or waiting for the boat could easily be.
 
*Floater*:
If you have to take your rig off at the surface it would weight 20# (weights) + 5# (plate) + 4# (full tank and regs) = 29#, so a true 30# wing filled to the brim should still keep it afloat but it's tight. Add a few lights, maybe a canister light, or some other extra and it would sink like a rock, plus some wings listed as 30# aren't truly 30#. Of course you could remove the weights first if next to a boat, etc. but I dunno.
Except I'm wearing the 20# of lead--it's not on the BP/wing assembly. I think the wing would handle the rig if the lead's not on it. But I might have to ditch some of the lead if the wetsuit won't keep me afloat with all of it on. Does this seem right to you?
 
Don Burke:
...While swimming six pounds up would not be an issue, keeping that six pounds on the surface while swimming or waiting for the boat could easily be.
But that wetsuit will be a whole lot more buoyant at 1 ATA vs. the 3 ATA he was using in his calculation. Apples to oranges. It also doesn't account for whatever gas has been used from his tank.
 
StSomewhere:
You can't swim up from 6 lbs negative? :06: I bet you can do that easily and just don't realize it.
I don't really know. Do you have some idea about what weight is hard to swim up, and what's impossible, for most people?
 
Hi,

First off you won't need 20lbs if you are diving wet and are using a al tank. At most you would need 8-10lbs.
Here in the tropics some of the guys don't even need weights to go under when using a bp/w rig and the plate is al not steel like what you are looking to get. For me I only need 6-8 on the first dive to wet the wetsuit and on the next dives I can get away with 2-4 lbs only.

30 lbs is more than enough if you are doing a single tank config and in fact a certain DIR instructor in Singapore only uses 40lbs for his doubles config.

Try not to over calculate everything and just borrow/rent a bp/w to test.

Everything will explain itself once you are in the water in this rig.

Cheers,

SangP
 

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