Buddies kept grabbing/pulling me to ascend faster than computer said was safe

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... you have the concept wrong...

Nope I was trying to simplify things - obviously not what argumentative people want. I didn't make the point well - accepted - forgive.

...Read his response and if needed I will explain how half times work... hint hint...:D

No please don't - that is exactly what is not needed. What is needed is a safe way to ascend. The computer provides that. Most divers don't need to have any more understanding of the algorithm than that. Certainly not in the Basic Scuba forum. You do not need to understand the difference between sidevalve and overhead valve engine to drive a car. I don't know why, but a lot of folk want to talk about the minutiae of hydraulic tappets in order to beat up the OP about pulling out a side junction without using the mirror.
 
Nope I was trying to simplify things - obviously not what argumentative people want. I didn't make the point well - accepted - forgive.



No please don't - that is exactly what is not needed. What is needed is a safe way to ascend. The computer provides that. Most divers don't need to have any more understanding of the algorithm than that. Certainly not in the Basic Scuba forum. You do not need to understand the difference between sidevalve and overhead valve engine to drive a car. I don't know why, but a lot of folk want to talk about the minutiae of hydraulic tappets in order to beat up the OP about pulling out a side junction without using the mirror.

Not sure what that means - but when you tell someone to pull out onto a side junction without looking - you are giving bad advise. Or you dont know what you are talking about - only you know for sure... :D
 
Nope I was trying to simplify things - obviously not what argumentative people want.

Simplifying things and saying things that are not correct are not the same thing. Argumentative people get bothered when people try to score points by saying things that are not true.
 
No please don't - that is exactly what is not needed. What is needed is a safe way to ascend. The computer provides that. Most divers don't need to have any more understanding of the algorithm than that. Certainly not in the Basic Scuba forum.

And I think this is where the difference is... We/I think that people should understand.... Understanding Narcosis... Understanding gas loading... Understanding Deco... Divers should be taught to Ditch and Don gear... How to dive without a mask... How to buddy breathe... All the things divers knew how to do years ago....

The lack of understanding by some on this thread is just crazy...

Jim....
 
And I think this is where the difference is... We/I think that people should understand.... Understanding Narcosis... Understanding gas loading... Understanding Deco... Divers should be taught to Ditch and Don gear... How to dive without a mask... How to buddy breathe... All the things divers knew how to do years ago......

OK that at least gives an explanation. It will not surprise you that I disagree. People that dive a few times on holiday don't need to understand decompression theory to the level that they can get into arguments about tissue groups. That's why we have computers and tables. You don't need to have a huge understanding of decompression if you don't do decompression diving.

Buddy breathing is a redundant skill and there are (as best I know) no agencies that still bother with it. It originated before AAS. If the likes of PADI don't think it is needed then I certainly don't feel qualified to disagree with them.

These are much wider debates then the thread though and don't really relate to the barrage of nonsense thrown at the OP.

We are rapidly coming up to 200 posts about a new diver that was being hassled by people for "too slow an ascent" when she followed the computer profile. This point is being lost as people try to show off or prove some idiot point about theoretical on-gassing or generally try to belittle the OP and stick up for a group of people that they don't know. We have dinosaur divers like that here in England too. I don't think though I have ever in my life heard of anyone being told to dump all their air before ascending. With moronic "advice" like that it is little wonder the OP is confused and sought a better understanding. In her position I too would try a forum - particularly a big forum like SB with huge numbers of people from all round the world and with massive experience of diving and of people. We haven't heard from the OP in a long long time now though. I am going to make an assumption that she has given up with it. So all that is left is a load of bitching about things that don't matter. Maybe time to close the thread and move on?
 
Part of the problem with this thread is that there have been two lines of discussion that have sometimes been blurred:
  1. What happened to the OP during this specific dive
  2. What is true of diving in general

Specifically, some people have talked about ascent rates in general and people have been confused and thought they were talking about this specific dive. I would like to clear up something about diving and general. I will leave it to others to apply it to what litle we really know about this specific dive.

Diving in General
Let me first tell a story about what happened on a dive last week. I was working with a bunch of students doing different advanced classes over several days. On some dives I would be working with some of the students while others who were not being instructed on that dive did their own things. We all generally entered and left the water at the same time. At the end of one such dive, one of the divers with whom I was not working on that dive said his computer was acting strange. It was giving him an "Er" message. I immediately realized he had missed a required decompression stop and not realized it, so I took him back down and stayed with him for a nearly 20 minute decompression stop. On the surface, I had him breathe oxygen for a while. He was OK.

We discussed the incident to find out what had happened. It turns out that when we were about to ascend, he had seen that he was just about at his NDLs according to his computer. He decided he needed to do a nice, slow ascent. He sure did. While he was ascending so slowly, his computer had put him into decompression. He had not realized it and had simply done a normal safety stop.

There are two lessons here:
  1. If you are going to use a computer, you need to understand what your computer is telling you.
  2. It is possible to ascend too slowly during a recreational dive, and if you do ascend too slowly, you can incur a decompression obligation.
 
People that dive a few times on holiday don't need to understand decompression theory to the level that they can get into arguments about tissue groups. That's why we have computers and tables. You don't need to have a huge understanding of decompression if you don't do decompression diving.

So I must ask - Do you do decompression diving? I am very curious.
Thank you in advance.
 
I was on a dive where the depth was 90ft ... I used 2474 psi during the dive and started with about 3100-3200 so when I surfaced I had between 626-726 psi so I would have had time to take a slower ascent. In addition, my computer said the dive lasted for 17 minutes.

...So when I got to 1100 psi I told him we needed to head up.

We started to ascend and at first I was having trouble going up because I had emptied all my air

As TSandM pointed out, it is very unusual for divers to pull another diver to the surface a was described. I am trying to understand things from their point of view to see if I understand why.

The diver said that when she signaled to the others that she wanted to ascent, she had 1,100 PSI, meaning she had used 2,000-2,100 PSI at that point. We have established that her SAC rate for the entire dive was about 50 PSI or 1.25 cubic feet for that dive. She was at 90 feet, or 3.73 ATA. That means she must have been breathing her air at about 3.73 * 50 = 186.5 PSI/min. She said she surfaced with 626-726 PSI, meaning she used about 400 PSI on the way to the surface, without doing a safety stop. If we assume the average depth of her ascent was 45 feet, then the direct ascent to the surface from 90 feet took nearly 4 minutes, or about 22 feet per minute.

So let's say I am her buddy at the point at which she says she has 1,100 PSI and wants to ascend. I am startled. Given a typical descent rate, we are only about 12-13 minutes into the dive, and she is ready to ascend? Assuming I have a SAC rate typical of a diver with that experience and that I started with the same amount of air she did, when I look at my gauge I see that I have more than 2,200 PSI--maybe as much as 2,400 PSI. What goes through my mind at that point? I'm thinking that I have a dive buddy who is really going through gas in a hurry. Am I able to do the math and calculate how fast and decide if she is going to go OOA before the end of the dive? Not under those circumstances. In the comfort of our homes, though, we can do those calculations. We can see that at the rate she was breathing air at that point in the dive, and with the amount of air she reported that she had left after her direct ascent to the surface without a safety stop, she would have been OOA by the end of that dive if she had stayed at that depth for about 3.5 more minutes. (Divide the 626-726 PSI she said he had at the end by the by 186.5 PSI/minute she was breathing at that depth.)

So I'm concerned at that point, and I want to get her going up. She then dumps all of the air from her BCD and has trouble ascending. She is trying to go up, but she is getting nowhere. Now I'm really getting worried. I try to hurry her along. Once she is going up, I still think she is going too slow. (She said that her computer indicated that at some point in the ascent she had exceeded the safe ascent speed, yet the entire ascent was a slow 22 FPM. That means the rest of that ascent was very slow indeed.)

I guess this helps me understand a little better. They probably could have handled things better, but I think I can see why they showed so much concern.
 
Hmm I always dump my air before doing my safety stop usually at around 30'. Perhaps this is bad practice but it works for me. I breath myself up. Now having said that I understand it is probably not the right practice for an overweighted newbie.
 
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