Breathing Argon or Argox?????

[TRUETEXAN]

I would like to start off by saying that I am not a tri-mix certified diver as of yet, but I plan to take several tech courses shortly after I finish my divemaster cert. in March. Okay, here's my question, is Argon used in any percentage as a breathing gas? I have read that Argon would be extremely narcotic as a breathing gas even at shallow depths, is this true?? If you can breath Argon what are the benefits and when would you use it? I understand using Argon as a drysuit inflation gas for warmth but I would appreciate any info on using it for breathing gas.
Just curious.......

Thanks!

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by TRUETEXAN
is Argon used in any percentage as a breathing gas?

Nope.
While not toxic, it is narcotic (as you've heard) and so there's no point in breathing it. Argon is used in drysuits as an insulating gas because it has better insulating qualities than air - and it's a whole lot better than helium - and when breathing trimix (Helium-Oxygen-Nitrogen) the Helium makes the gas worse than air as far as having a chilling effect, so the extra insulating qualities of argon around yer delicate bod are very nice indeed.
Rick

 

[Lost Yooper]

Here's a nice link describing why argon is used:

http://home.adelphia.net/~robworld/Why_Argon.htm

Take care.

Mike

 

[Green_Manelishi]

has been used as a deco gas. because it is *heavy, it ongasses
much slower than N2 or He. However, it is narcotic as hell and
therefore mostly (only?) for shallow stops.

The infamous Hans Keller used Argox as a deco gas during some
of his experiments with Helium based deep diving. Because of
its relatively slow on-gassing, the argox hoovered the Helium
right out of his system. Deco time was cut DRAMATICALLY.

Of course, then there are the other "exotics" such as neon and
krypton.

G_M

 

[voidware]

I was hanging around the dive shop, or taking a class, or something and talking to the local TDI instructor. Somehow we got on the topic of argon. i don't know about benefits but he said that if you breath argon you have to invert yourself every few minutes or your lungs will fill up with ultra dense argon and you will not be able to ventilate. is there anything to this?

brandon

<edit>
oops, reading that again, i see it is misleading. what I meant to say is that it will displace the oxygen in one's lungs.
</edit>

 

[Lost Yooper]

I hope he was messin' with ya, though nothing would surprise me nowadays.

Mike

 

[dc4bs]

Sounds reasonable on the face of it... Argon is a heavier gass than O2 and N2 so would have a tendancy to "sink" displacing the other gasses upwards.

I wouldn't think it would be a big problem with scuba as you should be breathing full, deep breaths each time. This would cause mechanical mixing of the gas as well as at least a reasonably large portion of the gas in your lungs to be exchanged with each breath preventing any "large" acumulation of argon at the bottom.

Also, the O2 content of the gas mix is normaly higher than 21% at depth which means that you could probably get by with the slightly reduced lung capacity caused by any argon taking up residence at the bottom without too many problems. The diver position in the water is normaly horizontal as well which would also tend to help prevent this.

If you were breathing softly and shallowly while vertical, say during a deco stop (as far as I know, horizontal body position is reccomended there as well), I'd think is the only place this could really be an issue one needed to wory about.

Not being a doctor or an expert on gasses the above is purely my inital reaction to the idea and could be completely wrong. ut:

 

[SDAnderson]

Argon in and of itself won't kill you, but it can asphyxiate you. Be careful - handle this stuff wrong and you die.

To the best of my knowledge, the only current use for Argon in SCUBA is as an insulating gas in drysuits. It is an asphyxiant and the 99%+ mixes used in drysuits are NOT suitable for breathing. I don't believe anyone breathes the stuff in any concentration anymore, unless they're trying to move on to the next world. It is carried in a separate tank with it's own first stage regulator (no second stage) and a hose for connecting to the fill valve on a drysuit.

For more information about Argon, try this:
Argon Material Safety Data Sheet or take a drysuit class. Whatever you do, don't breath it.

Argon is one of the noble gases. We used to think that they were relatively harmless, but not so much anymore. All are asphyxiants, some are just flat out scary.

The noble gases:

• Helium
• Neon
• Argon
• Krypton
• Xenon
• Radon

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by reefraff
the 99%+ mixes used in drysuits are NOT suitable for breathing.

I have heard, but do not know, that lots of folks mix 15-20% oxygen with their argon "just in case." Anyone else?
Rick

 

[SDAnderson]

Never heard of that being done, but in this modern world we live in...

The argon mix argument that I usually hear has to do with quality/pricing considerations for standard welding argon (which is over 99% argon) and the more pure five nines industrial stuff. The welding stuff is, relatively speaking, mucho cheaper but seems to work in the drysuits just fine. It will still put your lights out if you try to breathe it, however.