Brands, retail policies, and the whole marketing war bit

[kensuguro]

Okay, I don't want to start a war with this, I'm really new and want to figure out what's going on. I just recently bought Seaquest's Balance which I am happy with, but was also puzzled by how the way diving gear manufacturers operate.

It seems to me there's a distinct line between aqualung, scubapro, and then the rest. (zeagle, cressi, tusa, dacor, etc.) Scubapro seems to have a very tight retail policy, where the entire shop only sells scubapro stuff, and the price is fixed, and probably no mail order or price advertising on the net. Then it's aqualung where the shop's allowed to have other company's stuff in the shop, but the price is fixed, and there's no mail order or price advertising on the net. Then, the rest are pretty open, allow for discounting (outlet pricing), and do mail order and online shops.

I want to clarify again that I don't want to get into comparing individual gear from different companies.. hey, no one likes reading bad things about their expensive purchase.. But would like to hear about the companies' standings within the whole community. Like, Zeagle seems lean more towards technical divers, etc.. Or like Scubapro gear is really expensive... just easy to understand "images" so I can better get the big picture.

It's hard because you go to an scubapro shop, and they'll make it look like everything else isn't really worth it.. Can't blame them, it's their job. But I can't get the big picture if I always get a sort of "we're good, everyone else is bad" image cuz then the shops start crossing each other out, and I'll never get the whole picture. (if ya get my strange analogy)

All in all? It's confusing!

 

[TSandM]

Can't address the rest of your post, but our LDS carries both Scubapro and Aqualung regulators and BCs, and Scubapro and Harvey's wetsuits, so Scubapro clearly doesn't insist on an exclusive if you carry their gear.

 

[PerroneFord]

The shop near my house carries ScubaPro, Aqualung, and Oceanic. They tend to carry the high end gear from SP and Aqua, and the lower end gear from Oceanic. I am speaking of regs here. They carry Bare and Henderson suits, and they carry SP, Zeagle, and SP BCs. They have nothing to appeal to technical divers.

As I understand it, there is a non-competitive clause where only one dealer in this area can have SP and aqualung. So the other shop in town carries different brands. The other shop is also a bit more technically oriented with some basic cave gear, some Dive Rite regs and BP/W, etc.

Neither one does massive amounts of advertising. And both are too far from the ocean to get the "casual walk-in customer" looking for gear before he gets on the boat.

In terms of online sales, I don't think SP allows it at all, I don't know about Aqua, and I know Zeagle DOES allow authorized sales over the internet. To me this is significant as I tend to prefer to shop over the internet. I often buy locally, as practically ALL my SCUBA gear has been bought at LDS, but I like the option of buying warrantied products over the internet.

It's a value decision you'll have to make. Is the SP and Aqualung stuff so much better in your mind that you'll ignore the fact you have to pay full retail at the local shop? For some the answer is yes. For me, the answer is no.

 

[Wayward Son]

Scubapro has a minimum advertized price policy. Dealers do have some flexibility in what they sell items for.

As to "they can only sell Scubapro", sorry, that's horse droppings. It seems to be some form of urban myth, been going around for years & I have no idea why. Every shop I've bought from that sold Scubapro has also sold other brands, all the way back to 1978.

Here is a partial list of lines carried by my LDS (cut from their web page):

SEA DIVERS, Inc.

Is an authorized distributor for major brands such as: Scubapro, Oceanic, Dacor, Apeks, Sherwood, Genesis, Aqualung (USD), Atomic, Halcyon, Dive Rite, SeaQuest, Contempro, Zeagle, DeepSea, Uwatec, Suunto, Henderson, Bare, Moby, O'Neal, TUSA,
Princeton Tec, IkeLite, Pelican,
JBL, A.B. Billier, J.W. Fisher, and many other minor brands
If we don't have it, we can get it!

Now, they ARE a Scubapro shop. Meaning that they personally like SP products, and dive them. But they do stock other lines and are more interested in meeting the customers needs than selling a particular line or model.

I have bought Scubapro, Henderson, Oceanic, Ikelite, and other brands from them in the past year.

 

[xiSkiGuy]

Scubapro seems to have a very tight retail policy, where the entire shop only sells scubapro stuff, and the price is fixed, and probably no mail order or price advertising on the net.

It is true that Scubapro does have a "tight" retail policy, but not quite how you characterized it. I do not work in a dive shop, but in my understanding Scubapro does not require that a shop only carry their products. They do have a large opening order ($10,000 at wholesale) which might turn some small LDSs into a Scubapro exclusive shop. They do not "fix" the prices but set a MSRP (manufacture’s suggested retail price) and a slightly lower MAP (minimum advertised price). They do not allow authorized dealers to sell on the internet or ship any products.

Or like Scubapro gear is really expensive

Scubapro, like most manufactures, has several price points. What you LDS chooses to carry is up to them.

 

[Wayward Son]

This "no mail order/internet" sales thing is a dinosaur in the industry. Dunno what it will take these companies to wake up & kill it off. Maybe the heat brought on by their competitors allowing it will do the trick.

Scubapro, Aqualung & their lines, Dacor (unless recently changed) and others have a policy that mandates authorized dealer, over the counter sales only. The LDS is prevented by their aggreements with these companies from selling other than live & in person.

The primary reason for this, I am told, is loyalty to the dealers. There may be some truth to that, it may be what is intended, but my observation is that this policy is now hurting these dealers more than it's helping them.

If the manufacturers could somehow go after & stop the unauthorized grey market shops, it might make sense for the LDS. Since they either can't or won't, it doesn't seem to me to make much sense for the shops. They can't fully engage in the fight.

When these online stores can do anything they want, but the LDS's are bound by the terms they agreed to to become authorized dealers, they're fighting in the marketplace with hancuffs on.

They can compete, but in limited ways. They can provide stellar customer service & other inatgibles. They do offer full manufacturer warranties on the products. They can be competetive to a degree on pricing. The good shops do all of this.

But if they're limited to their local markets, can't sell over the net or by mail, then they're limited as to how much stock they can move. This in turn keeps their cost higher than if they could reach a larger market & move more stock, which raises their floor. It may well be impossible to match a price, bc it may be one that is actually less than they paid for the item to start with.

The industry is going to have to adapt with the times. Some of them, Oceanic & Zeagle come to mind, already are. The rest need to be working hard on the problem, bc it isn't going away or getting better all by itself.

 

[PerroneFord]

Wayward,

I agree. And I think it's the LDS that is going to have to spearhead it. Customers leaving and buying other products is somewhat hidden from the company (at least in the short term) beause wholesale sales to the LDS are still happening. But the frequency of orders slow down. When the LDS's start to drop lines and the orders stop coming in, I think the large companies might take notice.

It's the monopoly mentality. When the large companies act like they are the only game in town, they make these kinds of divisions. And purport to protect the LDS. The problem is that there are a LOT of good manufacturers out there these days. That MK25 may be a good reg, but that Apeks/Dive Rite/Atomics is mightly good also. And they will sell me parts. And they're cheaper. And I can order them on the internet...

It might be worth noting that American car companies followed this same model for years. Exclusive sales, ignored foreign competition, etc. Now they are losing their shirts to companies who offer easy sales, improved customer service, and now superior product.

Some of these larger companies better wake up. I've put money into the coffers of Dive Rite, Oceanic, Zeagle. My jet fins will be used ones. I like internet shopping.

 

[kensuguro]

Thanks to everyone for explaining all this stuff to me. So I guess there's some sort of conflict of the old and the new.. Or atleast it seems like the market is heading into a time of change.

I think the whole "over the counter only" model explains why I see many shops around here (Miami) that only cary a certain brand, or simply cary very little stock. And if I find a shop that carries many different brands, they'll never have aqualung or the other big companies. Probably has to do with the minimum order limit that was mensioned. All in all? It just seems like a customer has a hard time going around shopping and comparing physical products because everything is so split up and spread out in tiny shops... What we need is something like a mall.. like a diver's mall. hehe, that'll be cool.

But really, have any of you had the experience of wanting to buy something (like a bc) but had a hard time finding the shop that carried that specific model? I can't imagine mail ordering something like that (or even a wetsuit) without trying it on.. For that reason, I say power to the local retailers.

 

[Wayward Son]

That's one thing I like about Sea Divers. Mary will order it if she doesn't have it in stock.

It doesn't take a whole lot of gear in stock for inventory to hit $400,000, a shop simply can't keep some of everything.

Last year I needed a BC and was on a tight budget. She worked with me & recommended a model she carries but did not have in stock at the time. I checked it out, looked good, the price was fair. So I gave her my measurements, she checked with the distributir for size confirmation & ordered one in. If it didn't fit, she'd order another one & it wouldn't cost me anything. But it did fit well, so I bought it & have been diving the tar out of it.

Just bc you don't see it on the rack doesn't mean they can't get it. Ask.

 

[wunat]

But really, have any of you had the experience of wanting to buy something (like a bc) but had a hard time finding the shop that carried that specific model? I can't imagine mail ordering something like that (or even a wetsuit) without trying it on.. For that reason, I say power to the local retailers.

I see it as a nature of the business.

For new divers, they are usually TOLD what is right for them so LDS is probably one of the most effective communication and distribution channel for manufacturers.

For more experienced and knowledgeable divers, they now know better what is right for them. At the same time, we also know where to get the information and things we want (either from some distanced LDS or on-line). Even if one has decided to get it on-line, he/she might want to at least get a feel on the product. Also these divers are usually less influenced by marketing savvy proposed in fancy advertising. So the key is probably accessibility of the products.

These are probably good reason why manufacturers aren't seriously looking into on-line retailing and limited advertising.

..............just my perspective on this...............................