BP Wings vs BCD explanation

[Matthew]

However, once underwater, most divers desire a prone or "horizontal" body position. There are many advantages to this position, including the ability to swim forward in an easy and efficient manner.

Unfortunately, jacket-style BC's do not allow a diver to easily stay in this position without constantly swimming or "sculling" with the hands and feet. The reason is because the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy are so far apart. The forces at work - lift and gravity - tend to make this diver prone to becoming vertical constantly, reducing the diver's efficiency in the water. Reduced efficiency means that the diver has to work harder to stay correctly positioned, and therefore uses up his air or gas supply much faster than he would otherwise. Additionally, a diver who is constantly forced into a vertical position has the tendency to have his fins pointed downward, stirring up a soft muddy bottom and reducing visibility. In the worst case, an unskilled diver wearing jacket-style BC can do quite a bit of damage to the surrounding marine life, especially if he's diving over a delicate coral reef.

Did you not write the above?

I haven't forgotten my own words... And I haven't forgotten that you told me previously of your bp/wing experience.

The reason I asked again was because you weren't very convincing in your answer the first time. Furthermore, your additional questions and comments left me wondering why you didn't already have the answers you were looking for; most people who have had experiences with bp/wings would not complain of "not being able to get into an angled position," or "not being able to float at the surface."

I would not be convincing because I used the set-up for exactly two (2) dives. I tell you that I HAD some difficulty maintaining an angled position without having to fully straighten my legs, which I don't like to do, and I had to scull with my hands a little. And I found it hard to swim in that position, which I like to do. Of course I was able to float on the surface, in a manner different from what I'm used to, so I thought that I wouldn't want to be in that gear when waiting in very rough waters. These are NOT complaints, just objective observations from a first-time user. I know that there are solutions to these, and I keep an open mind that this equipment can work very well for me once I gain more familiarity with its proper use. But if you we were expecting a miracle, there was none.

Pardon?

That's not what I've seen. Of course, as I suggested to -hh, perhaps your idea of what exactly constitutes "finning" and "sculling" is different from what I consider "finning" and "sculling."

That's not what I mean. It IS common to see divers sculling / finning to maintain position, especially among newbies and those who do not dive regularly. But I insist that if you examine them closely, the INTENT would not be to maintain a horizontal position, but to maintain depth, or, a head-up position. Assuming that a diver does intend to get horizontal, imagine what type of movements will bring his upper body down? Sculling with the hands will have the opposite effect - it will reinforce the vertical position. The diver will have to stroke downwards continuously with the arms, and/or keep swimming the entire dive, which will take a lot of effort. This is like saying, "a diver will tire himself out to get horizontal, so he will not tire out quickly."

I haven't dived with you guys... So I couldn't tell you anything for sure. It was only a suggestion, based on the diving that I consistently see around here, which, incidentally, isn't any different than your own.

I'm not sure why you seem convinced that "your diving" is different than "our diving." Sure, there's probably a few vis differences and salinity differences and gear differences between you and me, and certainly there is between you and other places in the world. But I am amazed that you tend to believe that your diving is somehow "special" or "different." It's simply not.

No, no. I don't believe there's anything radically different. Like you, I often speak of what I actually do and what I see around here. You disagree with a lot of them, so I myself wonder if your believe your diving is somehow "special" or "different."

My point is that there's this vocal minority of people who are saying the same thing that I am... This isn't a conspiracy; you might want to consider what we have to say before discounting it all as, "We're different than you..."

Furthermore, since you have not dived with me, you might want to consider letting go of the myth that I have not dived in many places, in many different environments.

Yes, you people are quite vocal and yes, I'm considering what you people are saying. What I was saying from the start was that for a lot of people with limited purposes, the advantages of the gear you are suggesting may not be realized enough to justify the cost.

Yes, I have not dived with you, that's why if you review all my posts, I avoided questioning your abilities nor your experiences. You will notice that I always referred to hypothetical divers in hypothetical situations. Can you say the same yourself? And what makes you feel I entertain such a myth? The fact is I MYSELF and most of my buddies have dived many places but the SAME environment, which is one of the reasons we cannot (yet)fully appreciate the virtues of a bp/wing setup.

 

[Matthew]

Well, in the future, I believe that our conversation would be better without "baited questions." If you'd like to make a point, then feel free to do so.

I was not baiting. It was just a spontaneous expression of skepticism.

I don't know what to tell you... Perhaps it isn't an issue for you. Perhaps you're different than what so many other people are finding. Perhaps your water has some sort of magical "horizontal" formula in it.

Its up to you what to believe. I insist its an issue only for those who require lots of weight because of heavy exposure protection.

What I'm trying to say is simply that:

1. A properly weighted diver in warm water conditions should have no trouble maintaining a horizontal position using a "regular" bc, and for many people like myself, without trim weights.

2. Sculling / finning with the hands and feet are rarely indicative of a trim problem and should not be treated as such, or worse, be blamed on the bc.

 

[SeaJay]

Matthew once bubbled...


Did you not write the above?

Of course I did. Show me where I said that it was impossible for a diver equipped with a "regular" BC to remain horizontal. Specifically, I said above that a diver equipped with a jacket BC must scull or fin to remain horizontal. Of course, you convieniently left out the part in the article where I mention trim pockets and how they're an improvement and even an equalizer, blurring the trim differences between a "regular" BC and a bp/wing.

I'd still like to see you try that exercise I mention - the one where you cross your ankles and fold your hands and hang there for a minute or more. I think you'd find it very enlightening.

I know that there are solutions to these, and I keep an open mind that this equipment can work very well for me once I gain more familiarity with its proper use. But if you we were expecting a miracle, there was none.

Fair enough.

I wasn't expecting a miracle... In fact, I wasn't expecting anything. Heck, I wasn't even "hoping." I simply couldn't care less.

You were the one who began this chapter of this debate. If you prefer a $200 Tusa low-line BC like -hh does, even, I still couldn't care less. I was simply pointing out some of the differences between a bp/wing and "regular" BCs, based on my observations.

Its up to you what to believe. I insist its an issue only for those who require lots of weight because of heavy exposure protection.

I dive a bp/wing... And I have dived many times on a "regular" BC... And I insist that the advantages of a bp/wing can be felt even if you dive with no exposure protection at all.

You make your insistence based on two dives ever with a bp/wing.

...So while I can't tell you your opinion is wrong (it's an OPINION, after all), I can tell you that I believe it is uneducated, not based in fact, reality, or experience, and that I disagree with it.

A properly weighted diver in warm water conditions should have no trouble maintaining a horizontal position using a "regular" bc, and for many people like myself, without trim weights.

Please try the exercise that I outlined before saying this again. I think you'll find the results somewhat startling, and I believe that you'll want to retract that statement.

Sculling / finning with the hands and feet are rarely indicative of a trim problem and should not be treated as such, or worse, be blamed on the bc.

Nobody's blaming the BC for sculling and finning. The BC doesn't have hands and feet to "scull" with.

...And sculling or finning is indicative of any positioning problem, be it buoyancy or trim. Of course, "buoyancy and trim" is exactly what a BC is there for - so yes, it can have an effect on the diver's need to scull and fin.

The bottom line is that the diver must have the skill, and the tools to do the job. The "right" tools help make it easier to do the job correctly. Nobody's saying that gear is a replacement for skill.

Please try the "cross hands and feet" exercise I outlined. I think you'll find it very interesting.

 

[ew1usnr]

I saw this on ebay. Have any of you ever used a jacket like this? How do the two hoses going to the back work (what are they for)? From the front, the BC looks like a regular jacket with a left shoulder mounted hose. Thanks.

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...

If you prefer a $200 Tusa low-line BC like -hh does, even, I still couldn't care less.

Just a minor point of clarification on my part:

In this statement, I'm not really saying that I _prefer_ X over Y.

Instead, I'm saying "If X does the job just fine, then why Y?"


Ahh....color! Yeah, that's it. The Tusa isn't 100% ninja black.

...And sculling or finning is indicative of any positioning problem, be it buoyancy or trim. Of course, "buoyancy and trim" is exactly what a BC is there for - so yes, it can have an effect on the diver's need to scull and fin.

I agree, but I think you missed his point: are we really going to "blame the BC" for its user not putting the right amount of air in it?

IMO, most novices swimming along at 45 degree angles mostly because they're not neutrally buoyant. Their trim may be bad too, but that's not what's causing _most_ of their problem...neglecting this can make for an unfair comparison.

Please try the "cross hands and feet" exercise I outlined. I think you'll find it very interesting.

FWIW, I recently found a VHS tape that included a diver doing this "crossed/crossed" bit on a safety stop hang. I'll need to get a $200 video converter box to digitize it/etc, so that hardware probably won't arrive until Christmas...but that will probably be long before this thread dies out


-hh

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...


Just a minor point of clarification on my part:

In this statement, I'm not really saying that I _prefer_ X over Y.

Instead, I'm saying "If X does the job just fine, then why Y?"


Ahh....color! Yeah, that's it. The Tusa isn't 100% ninja black.
[/b]

Lol...

I agree, but I think you missed his point: are we really going to "blame the BC" for its user not putting the right amount of air in it?

I didn't miss his point. I think you may have missed mine.

Of course we're not going to blame the BC for the user not putting the right amount of air in it. That's silly.

...But what I'm suggesting is that this goes way beyond "putting the right amount of air in your BC." I suggest that correct buoyancy and trim goes far beyond that.

IMO, most novices swimming along at 45 degree angles mostly because they're not neutrally buoyant. Their trim may be bad too, but that's not what's causing _most_ of their problem...neglecting this can make for an unfair comparison.

Well, that may be the case, but that's not what I was referring to when I was talking about "proper trim" - which is what our whole conversation was about. We were talking about the "inherent trim" that a bp/wing has, and the fact that a "regular" BC doesn't seem to have this (although Matthew claimed that it did). Then we went into trim pockets, and I mentioned that they were an improvement, "blurring the line" between a bp/wing and a "regular" BC.

We're talking trim issues here... Which includes the 45* angle diver. While it may be true that the true novice swims at a 45* angle because he's not properly buoyanced, I was specifically talking trim issues instead. You're blurring my point.

FWIW, I recently found a VHS tape that included a diver doing this "crossed/crossed" bit on a safety stop hang. I'll need to get a $200 video converter box to digitize it/etc, so that hardware probably won't arrive until Christmas...but that will probably be long before this thread dies out

Lol...

 

[Matthew]

Of course I did. Show me where I said that it was impossible for a diver equipped with a "regular" BC to remain horizontal. Specifically, I said above that a diver equipped with a jacket BC must scull or fin to remain horizontal. Of course, you convieniently left out the part in the article where I mention trim pockets and how they're an improvement and even an equalizer, blurring the trim differences between a "regular" BC and a bp/wing.

Specifically what I contest. Can you please explain how to maintain a horizontal position by finning or sculling?

I'd still like to see you try that exercise I mention - the one where you cross your ankles and fold your hands and hang there for a minute or more. I think you'd find it very enlightening.
xxx
Please try the exercise that I outlined before saying this again. I
think you'll find the results somewhat startling, and I believe that you'll want to retract that statement.
xxx
Please try the "cross hands and feet" exercise I outlined. I think you'll find it very interesting.

As I said, my hands are always folded and crossing my ankles doesn't affect my position. If you are asking me to extend my legs, then that would bring my head up.

I dive a bp/wing... And I have dived many times on a "regular" BC... And I insist that the advantages of a bp/wing can be felt even if you dive with no exposure protection at all.

You make your insistence based on two dives ever with a bp/wing

...So while I can't tell you your opinion is wrong (it's an OPINION, after all), I can tell you that I believe it is uneducated, not based in fact, reality, or experience, and that I disagree with it.

My insistence is that:

1. A properly weighted diver in warm water conditions should have no trouble maintaining a horizontal position using a "regular" bc, and for many people like myself, without trim weights.

2. Sculling / finning with the hands and feet are rarely indicative of a trim problem and should not be treated as such, or worse, be blamed on the bc.

You can neither prove nor disprove the above by doing a thousand dives with bp/wings. I based it on what I see and what I experience.

Now, honestly, did you change to a bp/wing setup based on your well thought out, "educated" research involving countless/30+ bc's and hundreds of dives? Or was it one of the many requirements of a course you took, which also overhauled your entire concept of diving? The following questions come to mind:

1. Can you enumerate at least 10 of the bc's you tested? Maybe we can understand why your depiction of a bc aircell (and the pertinent center of lift) seems to deviate so much from the bc's commonly in use today.
2. When did the testing happen? Was it before or after your GUE course?

...And sculling or finning is indicative of any positioning problem, be it buoyancy or trim. Of course, "buoyancy and trim" is exactly what a BC is there for - so yes, it can have an effect on the diver's need to scull and fin.

The bottom line is that the diver must have the skill, and the tools to do the job. The "right" tools help make it easier to do the job correctly. Nobody's saying that gear is a replacement for skill.

To me, proper positioning is an ability. It is not a job. A regular bc allows a diver to do it, under certain conditions.

 

[SeaJay]

Matthew once bubbled...


Specifically what I contest. Can you please explain how to maintain a horizontal position by finning or sculling?

Sure. Kick, kick. Scull, scull. The flat surfaces of your fins and hands can be used to change your body postion. You seem to insist that it can be used to change your place in the water column, but that it can't be used to change your body's angle of attack. I don't see how that could possibly make any sense... Using body movements, I'm able to move up, down, around, tilt myself, etc... Aren't you?

As I said, my hands are always folded and crossing my ankles doesn't affect my position.

No, specifically, what you said was that you'd never tried the exercise. Which is it?

The only way that this could be demonstrated to you... The only way you're going to believe... Is if you try the exercise yourself, and fail to maintain position. You've already made up your mind, and I doubt it's in my power to change that. Not that it matters to me... But to me, it's as if you're arguing that the sky is green. All I can say is, "no it's not," and "look outside and tell me what you see." If you say to me, "I looked outside, and the sky is green," then either you didn't really look outside, you don't have a valid understanding of the word, "green," or you're lying just to keep from looking like you're wrong. Whatever. It doesn't matter to me... But you're not going to convince me that the sky is green today.

If you are asking me to extend my legs, then that would bring my head up.

Really? What sort of fins are you using? Are you using ankle weights?

My insistence is that:

1. A properly weighted diver in warm water conditions should have no trouble maintaining a horizontal position using a "regular" bc, and for many people like myself, without trim weights.

I agree completely... A diver should have no trouble... Although most divers I know (divers in sub-tropical waters using 3 mil exposure suits in salt water) need the trim weights in order to accomplish this. The manufacturers believe this, too... That's why they make trim weight pockets on their BC's. If they weren't needed, then why would they bother to put the pockets there?

2. Sculling / finning with the hands and feet are rarely indicative of a trim problem and should not be treated as such, or worse, be blamed on the bc.

I've found that sculling and finning are indicative of a positioning problem... And that the problem can be borne of either trim, buoyancy, or even current. Making a blanket statement like what you're doing, I feel, is misleading.

You can neither prove nor disprove the above by doing a thousand dives with bp/wings. I based it on what I see and what I experience.

Pardon? So... *I* can neither prove nor disprove the above by doing a thousand dives, but *you* can prove or disprove it? (Or at least make recommendations based on it?)

What I see and experience apparently has given me different conclusions than what you have seen and experienced; which is exactly what you pointed out in the very beginning of this debate. Do you remember me telling you that this didn't make any sense, since our water is the same as yours?

The bottom line is... If you have an opinion, feel free to share it. But I, too, have an opinion, and it's not based on ignorance... It's based on lots and lots of experimentation. If you expect me to respect your opinion (which, frankly, I have a difficult time doing) then I expect the reciprocal.

Now, honestly, did you change to a bp/wing setup based on your well thought out, "educated" research involving countless/30+ bc's and hundreds of dives? Or was it one of the many requirements of a course you took, which also overhauled your entire concept of diving?

Although I find it offensive that you'd imply that I've been unable to think for myself, I certainly understand that your question is legitimate.

I tried a bp/wings, along with other BC's, and did not find a serious difference from one to the other... This was prior to my DIR-F course. I didn't see what all of the hubub was about. The bp/wing appeared to me to function just like every other BC on the market, and frankly, I wasn't real crazy about it because the "continuous" harness that I dove made adjustments a pain. Also, the "regular" BC was simpler to buy, dial in, and just go diving. I could not see enough of a difference anywhere to warrant the extra effort that it would take to set up a bp/wing.

When I took my DIR-F course, however, I was given a new set of skills. I had never seen anyone just "hang" in the water like that... The trim and buoyancy these guys exhibited were simply amazing. And while it did not require a bp/wing to enable these guys to do this skill, the bp/wing certainly had certain advantages that were more conducive to performing the skill. The tool simply fit the job better.

Amongst those advantages were the stability that the plate offered, and the fact that the weight of the plate distributed the diver's trim better than a "regular" BC. There were also advantages in being able to choose cell size and have it wrapped around the tank - which changes buoyancy sizably from full to empty.

...And that's really how I decided that I preferred a bp/wing over a "regular" BC... DIR training did not make the decision for me... *I* made my own decision, thank you very much. But it definitely helped that I was introduced to a skill set that could take advantage of the bp/wing's characteristics.

The following questions come to mind:

1. Can you enumerate at least 10 of the bc's you tested? Maybe we can understand why your depiction of a bc aircell (and the pertinent center of lift) seems to deviate so much from the bc's commonly in use today.

Check around on the board... I don't think you'll find my "depiction of a bc aircell [to] deviate...from the bc's commonly in use today."

Off the top of my head, I can tell you a dozen or so...

1. SeaQuest Balance
2. SeaQuest Black Diamond
3. Scubapro Classic Plus
4. Scubapro Classic Sport
5. Scubapro Knighthawk
6. Zeagle Ranger
7. Zeagle Concept II Pro
8. Oceanic Chute
9. Tusa Liberator
10. Aqualung Wave
11. SeaQuest Pro QD Plus
12. SeaQuest Pro QD Unlimited

All of these BC's are current models. Nice try, but no, my experiences were with some of the best on the market today.

2. When did the testing happen? Was it before or after your GUE course?

Before.

I had actually settled in on a Scubapro Classic Plus... I also liked a SeaQuest Black Diamond quite a bit. The bp/wing was a favorite of mine, too, but was relegated to third place... Respectable, given the excellent choices in BC's today.

I chose the Classic and Black Diamond based on trim, buoyancy, attention to detail in manufacturing, reputation/warranty, quality of materials, accessible pockets, and the like... But when a new skill set was introduced to me, it "upped the bar" on what a BC should enable the diver to do... And in those skills, there was no BC which could perform like a bp/wing.

The skills included the ability to demonstrate perfect trim and buoyancy, which up to that point I thought I was pretty good at.

To me, proper positioning is an ability. It is not a job. A regular bc allows a diver to do it, under certain conditions.

I agree.

That said, I believe a bp/wing to be a better tool for performing the "ability" under any conditions.

At least, that's been my experience. If that's not been yours, then fine... We're all welcome to our own opinions.