Cave Diver once bubbled...
I noted that your Vyper was new. Thats why I referenced it as only the 14th dive in the last month since you bought it.
The fact that you havent used it on every dive may be part of the problem as to why you misread the information it gave you.
Well, that's true. No doubt about it, you're right.
There's more, too... ALL of the dives I've done with the Vyper have been relatively shallow. This was my first and second dives where an NDL was threatened by my air supply.
For example, all of my other dives have been extended stays at 35' or 45' or 22' or whatever. This was my first dive (and subsequent second) where my NDL might run out before my air supply.
So, yeah... You're right. I was not sure how my new Vyper would handle the situation. I read everything in the owner's manual... Twice. Maybe three times, even. I was simply under the impression that "zero" meant that was my NDL limit. While that's certainly true, it's also true that hitting zero at depth means that you're going to earn a deco.
I thought I was doing okay by turning at three minutes. That wasn't the case. It might have been, if my ascent rate had been more "normal."
My point was that instead of "experimenting" perhaps you should have gotten that "right" education on decompression.
Well, that's true, too. That's why I was looking for an answer to the "right" education in that thread. Make no mistake about it... The timing was not coincidental.
Nonetheless, I also did not intentionally go past my NDL. That's what I referred to as "the scary part."
See, I was aware of the fact that I wasn't sure when, exactly, I needed to turn my dive, according to my 'puter. I took what I thought was a conservative approach, leaving basically at three minutes. It wasn't enough.
That's what I wanted to share with others.
Turns out, that after some discussion, it WOULD have been conservative enough... Just barely... If I'd had a normal rate of ascent.
The two together... Not understanding that three minutes wasn't early enough, and a very slow rate of ascent... Were enough to put me in deco.
Let me pose a question to you. Suppose your buddy had gotten a bad cramp toward the end of that dive and needed your assitance? Would you have had the air supply to meet your deco obligation and assist him?
Well, that's speculative. I believe so, but that's only a hypothesis.
But I see your point... Let's say my buddy had had an OOG emergency. I would NOT have had the air supply to meet my deco obligation and assist him. That "window" of not having enough gas to assist in an OOG and simultaneously meet a deco obligation was probably the point at which my no deco dive became a deco dive. In other words, from about 20 minutes into the dive to about 30 minutes into the dive (because he could have simply surfaced at 30 minutes on... He had no deco obligation and we were at 10 feet). This ten minute window of not being able to share gas was the extent of the emergency.
So I see your point, and I agree with it. There was additional risk that was unacceptable, and should have been prevented.
Remember, I did NOT intend to go past my NDL. I dove that dive knowing that there was a risk of that, but it was not an intention.
I intended that three minutes of NDL would suffice. It didn't.
The "right" education doesnt mean that you manage to get out of the water with air in your tank. It means having enough air to safely get you and your buddy out in the event of an emergency and still meet all of your deco requirements.
Very true.
I did not intend for the dive to go into deco.
You didn't have the training or you wouldnt have been in that situation to begin with.
Okay, but then why does PADI offer training relative to, "If you overstay your NDL?"
...Which is exactly what I did. Remember, I did not plan a deco dive.
My point is that I HAVE been trained on what to do if I overstay my NDL. I have not been trained on decompression diving.
It can be argued that I did not dive beyond my training.
I do see your point, though... I should not have been in deco because I haven't been trained on it. You're exactly right... That was "The Big Mistake." I was very unnerved by the fact that I was doing something for which I was not trained.
However, PADI does teach how to handle the accident when it happens... Safely. And I fell back on that training to ensure safety.
As I stated above, not using it on every dive since you got it might have contributed to your unfamiliarity with what it was telling you.
That's certainly true. This is my first and second "deep dives" with the 'puter.
The scary part is that I am... And was... Intimately familiar with the owner's manual, and knew how to operate the computer. I've taken the thing through many simulated dives, too.
And I still didn't understand the meaning of "three minutes," or I wouldn't have been in that situation.
And my comment was that in my opinion you asked for information and within a week you took that information and did a dive with very similar parameters that was beyond the training you had received. Perhaps the timing was just coincedental...
No, I'm not going to let you believe that. It was very definitely NOT coincidental.
I knew that on my deep dives my gas and NDL were close... And would require some management which I was unclear on. "Diving my plan" has always kept me out of deco in the past. Now that I had a computer, I could more accurately gauge my NDL based on real data. And my fear was getting too close to my NDL. Thus, I asked the question and started the thread.
...So when I took my 'puter on that dive, I decided I'd enjoy some of the more "accurate" information, and still leave myself with some room for error. Three minutes, to be exact.
Unfortunately, that did not work. I still went into deco and had to perform "emergency" procedures... What I'd been trained on. What I have not been trained on was doing exactly the same thing as a part of the plan, and not as an emergency.
Which agency, and what did they teach you?
PADI. They teach that if you overstay your NDL for five minutes or less, ascend to 15 feet and deco for eight minutes or more. No diving or flying for 48 hours. If you overstay your NDL for more than five minutes, ascend to 15 feet and deco for 15 minutes or more. No flying or diving for 48 hours. My instructor taught that "if you overstay your NDL for more than five minutes, stay as long as your gas permits... Don't get out at 15 minutes if you don't have to." That seems logical, as "anything more than five minutes" is a very nondescript amount of time.
Actually, I think you thanked a couple of people. With one exception, it seemed to have a ring of sarcasm. Although I admit it is difficult to tell the tone of something when it's in text.
No, the message rang through correctly. I was being sarcastic in that one post.
My sarcasm mirrored his genuine concern (or lack thereof).
Is it your turn on the soapbox again? 
Yeah, move over. Just kidding.
Congratulations on your hardwork and your accomplishments. But I believe my words were "appropriate classes."
I hear ya loud and clear.
You know, the ones like advanced nitrox, Tech 1, or something of that nature that would address some of these issues for you.
That would be awesome.
Tech I required DIR-F, which is now a certifying course. Since I felt so inept (as most have) at DIR-F, I've been practicing... And changing my lifestyle... And getting the right gear. And trimming and bouyancing and all of the "right" stuff like crazy.
Yes, Tech I is definitely in the works. I'm also thinking about Nitrox, although the class in and of itself wouldn't be very useful to me, since 'trox isn't really available anywhere near me. It would clear the way, though, for Advanced Nitrox, which I think would help (right?) in this case. I think that I need Advanced 'trox and DIR-F again before attempting Tech I.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't taken these courses yet, so I can only go on what information has been given to me.
Or did your OW1 class cover all of that also?
Lol... Of course not. OW1 certifies to 60 feet only, and only within the NDLs.
No problem at all for the suggestion. Seemed it was needed and you are most welcome.
Yes, a genuine thanks.
That may very well be, but you're still not getting my bud light.
Heheheeeee...
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