Bends possible while flying 24 hrs after a dive?

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jo8243

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Are there known cases of divers who have followed all the rules (stayed within dive table or computer no-deco limits) and waited 24 hrs before flying who still got bent during the flight?

Just wondering what the odds are of retaining any excess nitrogen 24 hrs after the last dive? Is 24 hrs pretty much a guarantee for most of the population that you will be outgassed or is it not that simple?

Thanks
 
True Story...

Fall of 1995...

A lady from Nashville was diving in Cozumel. She was there for a little over a week and dove at least 7 days in a row 3-4 dives a day pushing her depth limits and NDL limits every dive. But always staying within the "recreational limits".

Day 7 the last dive she had tingling sensations in her extremities.
She called an American Doctor and they said not to fly for 36 hrs.

34-36 hrs. later she takes off from Cozumel heading to St. Louis. (St. Louis used to have a non-stop flight, don't know if they still do or not).

Once she got up to cabin pressure (anywhere from 7,000 ft. to 10,000 ft.) she got bent hard. They flew on and landed in Houston and took her to a hospital immediately....

My point is...You can still get bent followign the rules but use common sense. Don't do all those deep dives for many days in a row. Take a break for a day and relax..Have a margarita and enjoy other aspects of life.
 
Dear jo:

I am not aware of anyone who was a problem-free recreational diver and waited 24 hours following recreational diving who still got DCS.

I am aware of a commercial diver who made an experimental dive in a chamber, experienced knee pain, was successfully treated, and then waited three days before traveling on plane. The knees pain redeveloped during the flight.

The previous post ["true story"] illustrates that recreational divers with previous DCS problems can also get into trouble on a plane.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
Dr Deco once bubbled...
I am aware of a commercial diver who made an experimental dive in a chamber, experienced knee pain, was successfully treated, and then waited three days before traveling on plane. The knees pain redeveloped during the flight.
Dr. D, is there a generally agreed-upon theoretical model for how and why that happens? I.e. when this diver gets on the plane three days after being released from the chamber, is his micronuclei population different than it would usually be? Would tenderness of the affected tissue or nerve at the injury site increase susceptibility?
 
jo8243, I believe you are confusing two different processes. IF any diving medicine regulators are on-line, please correct me.

Dissolved N2 will indeed continue to offgas after the dive, due to the gradient between atmospheric N2, and the greater pressure of N2 in your tissues. This is a smooth continuous process and should not cause a problem.

Bubble formation, N2 or otherwise, will occlude capillaries and tissues and get bigger as the external gas pressure is reduced. If you had bubble formation coming out of the dive, they will not disappear spontaneously. Now some divers with bubbles are asymptomatic (hence the term "silent bubbles"). However, it is quite likely these bubbles will get bigger when you get the reduced cabin pressure on a airplane flight, and this will lead to definite DCS symptoms.

It is said that bubbles have a "memory". So if the bubbles were created at 100 fsw or 4 Atm, you will need to be recompressed to that depth to get rid of them (they will be bigger than bubbles created at say 33 fsw or 2 Atm).

Is this a theoretical argument or do you have any symptoms. If so, go see a doctor. I am an ex-biochemist but not a dive doctor.
 
Hmm...

Dare I open my mouth?

Ok, so with people getting bent after spending multiple days out of the water, decompressing at 1.0 ata, how are the GUE instructors flying with their hair wet after doing "proper deco"?

In other words, is there some way that their deco is "cleaner" as I've often heard said than the someone sitting on the beach for a couple of days? Or are these guys just more fit than average, and adjusting the level of risk they take according to their life styles?

This is a serious question, not a troll.
 
No, I have symptoms..... just asking a theoretical question.
 
Oops, I mis-typed..... I meant to say, "I have no symptoms......" :)
 
Crispos,

Bubbles have something like a "memory" if the skin
coating the bubble doesn't change thruout compression-
decompression. On overpressure to the same excitation
pressure, the compression curve can follow the same path
in reverse, so to speak, under ideal conditions. In real
cases, the skin gets perturbed (unless it's real self-adhesive)
and expansion and contraction time histories are different.

Such is seen in lab studies in various substrates. Herein,
the underlying mechanism is surface tension (2 gamma/r),
and changes in gamma link to the skins.

Actually though, any overpressure will eventually get
rid of bubbles. It's just a matter of time -- and the central
goal of efficient deco is to do that safely and minimally.

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr
 
I normally don't hang out here in the deco section... I'm simply not knowlegable on the subject, and don't want to open my mouth and say something stupid.

...But your direct question is something that I can speak on.

I just did a "Flying After Diving" study with Duke University, which is funded by DAN, and in this case, the United States Navy.

Their research is ongoing, too. I suggest you give the Hyperbaric Facility at Duke a phone call. Ask to speak to Eric. Tell him SeaJay sent you, and you'd like to ask him some questions. He's extremely knowlegable.

The bottom line is that they're doing research on exactly what you're talking about... Because previous research, from which we gleaned the rule of "no flying 24 hours after diving," has been found to be at best inconclusive, and at worst incorrect. I saw the data myself.

When they started the recent re-testing, they chose a dive profile that was very conservative, and followed it up with a very low "flight." Since the facility is able to detect DCS far before it becomes obvious to the patient, they were not looking to bend anyone... They were looking for the symptoms. It's safe to assume that the more aggressive the dive profile became, and the more aggressive the flight afterward became, the more symptoms they'd get, right? Heck, simply changing the surface interval should bring some symptoms out.

Well, the research (which is impressively thorough) did not find the symptoms they expected.

...So they've kept testing and testing. There's been several hundred people who have participated at this point... With very little to show in terms of symptoms. So... Each time, they've gotten more aggressive with the profile.

My "dive" profile (a month and a half ago) was 60 feet for 40 minutes, 1 hour SI, followed by a 4 hour flight at 8,000 feet. Why 4 hours at 8,000 feet? Well... Most commercial airliners pressurize their cabins to that pressure (or roundabouts), and 4 hours pretty much gets anyone home from most dive locations.

Nobody in our group experienced any symptoms of DCS... And only one actually had any bubble formation that was detectable. Far from DCS, this was sort of a "precursor" to DCS, and entertained us all considerably, including the patient. These were more like pre-microbubbles.

The next profile will be 60 for 40, zero SI, and 8,000 for four hours. The scientists have theorized that there won't be a radical difference in results. I tend to believe them... There's not much of a better bunch of "experts" in the world.

The whole project was amazingly enlightening. I learned much about how my body reacts to pressure from being able to do it dry, sitting in a chair, observing the results. For example, I was surprised to find that our voices changed considerably, even with no change in atmospheric chemistry. The denser air did amazing things. It doesn't require helium to get you to talk like a duck, you know... Although it no doubt makes it even worse.

...What was also fascinating was the unbelievable temperature change in a matter of about two minutes... Going to depth, we saw a temperature change of about 15*. That is, the room went from 75 to 90 in two minutes, without anything blowing... No heaters, no fans, no nothing. It was very weird.

...What was even weirder was feeling the temperature drop the same amount on decompression, again without anything blowing in cold air. Much to the delight of everyone involved, "fog" appeared before our very eyes, thick enough to obscure the person sitting next to each of us. It was truly amazing.

I also had the delight of watching every single person get completely stoned out of their mind when we dove. We all narced hard. Pressure built, and we "descended" for two minutes. When we got to the "bottom" and we all let go of our noses (for ear clearing) we were all very, very quiet. I nudged the person next to me, who had grown fuzzy hair everywhere and said, "Duuuude... Do you feel that?" He 'bout died laughing... While trying to hold it in and giggling/spitting all over himself. He fell off his chair - forward - and the place turned into a complete riot. I mean, we were all super-stupid. It was one of the funniest moments of my life, but for the life of me, I can't remember what the heck we all thought was so funny. Then... In an instant, we were all completely sober. The whole "narc" lasted like 30 seconds, and was gone instantly.

The scientists, some of whom were "riding" with us, seemed unsurprised. "It's normal," they said (while laughing/spitting on themselves).

Yes, it was truly enlightening... And I learned a lot about diving that day. And I highly recommend it to any diver... Finally, you get to find out what YOUR body does under pressure, how to avoid DCS, what really to look for, and what DCS really means.

Frankly, I have much less fear of it now... And am simultaously a safer diver. Education is a beautiful thing.

My $120 check I received for participating (and free DAN Preferred insurace for a year, not to mention free hotel... Dinner... Good friends...) was great. I spent it on diving. :D

PM me if you'd like to participate; I'll get you the info.
 
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