Beginners doing GUE fundamentals?

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I'm not sure if it's a little late to contribute my personal opinion and experience on this topic. I know my case might be different from most, but I would have really appreciated hearing what I've learned over the past 7 years since I got into the GUE scene so that my experience could have been friendlier than it turned out to be.

The first thing I want to say is that I really like GUE's structured procedures and the high level of discipline they require. I feel super comfortable following the GUE approach, and I'm genuinely happy with everything I've learned so far. I'm not saying GUE is the best approach for everyone—but for me, it absolutely is.

What I do regret, though, is the way I went about learning, the insane amount of money I wasted on training that, in the end, gave me very little, and the overwhelming frustration I went through during the process. Or maybe my expectations were just different. I won't go into too much detail, but I think there are some points that could help others—just like they would have helped me 7 years ago.

When I discovered GUE, I was a PADI OWD with around 20 dives under my belt, and I was very eager to learn how to dive properly and safely. At the time, many people told me, "You're lucky because you're starting with very little experience, so you won't have any bad habits that are hard to fix later on." I also came across some fantastic videos online showing people mastering buoyancy and trim in a pool and so on during Fundamentals training, and it all looked amazing.

BUT…

The reality was quite different. The theory classes and dry runs were great, and—as someone else in this thread wrote—“Far more important than skill mastery is the mindset and critical thinking taught in a GUE course.” I completely agree with that. But in my opinion, GUE training often feels more like an evaluation process to determine whether you already have the skills. If you don’t, like in my case, you don’t pass, and it’s up to you to figure out how to fix whatever you're missing. That might mean practicing on your own, or paying someone else to teach you the skills (which to me doesn’t make much sense). I’m not saying no instructor puts effort into helping you learn and fix issues—but in my experience, less than half of them actually did.

My most frustrating experience has been trying to meet the Tech 1 skill requirements. After two instructors and five years, I still haven't passed. I’m not saying they should just hand me the certification—I fully understand that I need to demonstrate my skills, but I assumed that by paying for such expensive courses I would receive guidance and support to help me improve. And the solution? You're told to go dive and let's see (literally) so you have to get trained elsewhere to fix your issues, then come back (and pay again) to be evaluated. If you don’t pass, you go home, train again selsewhere, and repeat. Just in Tech 1 training fees, I’ve spent over €3800—plus all the logistics—only to be told, “You didn’t pass because of X. Go fix it, then come back and let's see.”

What upset me the most was that after my last Tech 1 training—or rather, evaluation—I was deeply frustrated and didn’t even want to fill out the "quelity form" they ask for at the end. But because they insisted, I submitted my honest opinion. What I got in return was an email from a GUE Board Director who responded in a way I felt was extremely unprofessional, unfair, and arrogant. I was honestly shocked. I never expected anything like that.

So in summary:
I do recommend the GUE path, but if you go that way, try to master all the core in-water skills beforehand, dive as much as posible with other GUE divers and look for an instructor who’s genuinely committed to helping you progress when you hit a roadblock. Otherwise, you might end up just paying for very expensive evaluation processes.
So I want to thank you for stepping up and having a well explained criticism of GUE. Especially as some of us, including myself, always strongly recommend them. Though I will admit, I never went the T1 route as I had already completed normoxic trimix training before I took fundies. I also live in an area with a strong GUE community and after I completed fundies, I had a workshop with a different GUE instructor (no complaints with my fundies instructor, just wanted to mix up perspectives).

Your criticism seems absolutely fair and doesn't come across (to me) as disgruntled in the slightest, just frustrated (understandably).
 
I would have spent the money on dives. If I can master all the skills required why do I need an evaluation from GUE?
What I call 'evaluations' are actually courses. I just use the word 'evaluation' to describe the kind of training I received (that’s just my personal opinion). You're supposed to pay for instruction and support when you need help improving certain skills... but that didn’t happen in my case — I had to improve on my own.

That said, I once had a great GUE cave instructor who would teach us anything we needed to reach the required skill level (within reasonable limits) and shared many useful tricks with us. So, not all instructors are the same, and I believe it's also important to have a good connection between the student and the instructor — after all, we're all human.

Obviously, if I had known this in advance, I would have spent my money on something else.
 
What I call 'evaluations' are actually courses. I just use the word 'evaluation' to describe the kind of training I received (that’s just my personal opinion). You're supposed to pay for instruction and support when you need help improving certain skills... but that didn’t happen in my case — I had to improve on my own.

That said, I once had a great GUE cave instructor who would teach us anything we needed to reach the required skill level (within reasonable limits) and shared many useful tricks with us. So, not all instructors are the same, and I believe it's also important to have a good connection between the student and the instructor — after all, we're all human.

Obviously, if I had known this in advance, I would have spent my money on something else.
There is definitely a spectrum of teaching styles across GUE. I've been fortunate to work with a dozen instructors across my technical training, with half of them being GUE instructors. Some were great at giving me actionable, meaningful feedback while others just didn't have what I needed on tap.

These days when someone asks me about instruction and who I would recommend, I tend to ask a lot of questions about their learning style before making a recommendation. What works for me, isn't the same for others - I prefer a less structured, more circuitous path that includes far more "why" than just "what" while others like a direct style. Matching student and instructor personalities and styles maximizes the value received in training regardless of the agency.
 
There is still one organization left in the world that is saying “No. We will only pass you if you are sufficiently hard core.” If GUE didn’t exist, there would be none.
 
There is still one organization left in the world that is saying “No. We will only pass you if you are sufficiently hard core.” If GUE didn’t exist, there would be none.
To be fair, ISE and UTD are also quite stringent. But they're even less known than GUE...
 
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There is still one organization left in the world that is saying “No. We will only pass you if you are sufficiently hard core.” If GUE didn’t exist, there would be none.
I"m fine with that and I think that should be the way. The point is, as a diver, how you reach this "sufficiently hard core?. From zero to hero you need training (not only dive repeating again and again bad habits), and that's the big difference. An instructor can be a good trainer or just an evaluator. Who would you pay to train you? Would you pay near 2000 EUR just to be evaluated?
 
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I"m fine with that and I think that should be the way. The point is, as a diver, how you reach this "sufficiently hard core?. From zero to hero you need training (not only dive repeating again and again bad habits), and that's the big difference. An instructor can be a good trainer or just an evaluator. Who would you pay to train you? Would you pay near 2000 EUR just to be evaluated?

Well, to be fair when I did it, really only the last day was the evaluation. It sort of felt like, you have a week to bond as a team, try various skills in isolation, ask questions, potentially make mistakes which your instructor should notice and critique. The real question is, by the end of the week, can you and your team get your act together enough to plan and execute one perfect dive which, by the way is a lot like the dives you'd be doing with GUE teams, if you passed. Some things, the instructor can correct within the week; for example if you were carrying the SMB in the wrong pocket, they can tell you and you can say, "oh, I didn't know that" and move it to the correct pocket. But there are other things that, realistically, no instructor is going to be able to fix in a week. One example is task loading. If you have deployed your SMB hundreds of times the same way, correctly, then you can probably do it in your sleep and so it isn't really task loading if you have to do that while doing three other things. Ditto for valve drills. If you have been doing them on every dive for years, then you aren't task loaded but someone with less experience would be task loaded if given the exact same tasks. It's not realistic to build that muscle memory in 4 days. The best your instructor can do is see that you don't have it, and point out exactly what you need to go practice. But the instructor cannot build the muscle memory for you, nor can they train it into you in a week.
 
Well, to be fair when I did it, really only the last day was the evaluation. It sort of felt like, you have a week to bond as a team, try various skills in isolation, ask questions, potentially make mistakes which your instructor should notice and critique. The real question is, by the end of the week, can you and your team get your act together enough to plan and execute one perfect dive which, by the way is a lot like the dives you'd be doing with GUE teams, if you passed. Some things, the instructor can correct within the week; for example if you were carrying the SMB in the wrong pocket, they can tell you and you can say, "oh, I didn't know that" and move it to the correct pocket. But there are other things that, realistically, no instructor is going to be able to fix in a week. One example is task loading. If you have deployed your SMB hundreds of times the same way, correctly, then you can probably do it in your sleep and so it isn't really task loading if you have to do that while doing three other things. Ditto for valve drills. If you have been doing them on every dive for years, then you aren't task loaded but someone with less experience would be task loaded if given the exact same tasks. It's not realistic to build that muscle memory in 4 days. The best your instructor can do is see that you don't have it, and point out exactly what you need to go practice. But the instructor cannot build the muscle memory for you, nor can they train it into you in a week.
I'm not expecting instructors having a magic wander, and also think when things are not black or white there is room for interpretations and different point of views. Also don"t want to enter into specifics here because this post is for something else.
 

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