BC/Wing Plate vs. Jacket-style BCD

[SeaKat]

I'm not trying to be flippant,

But of course, you were (grin)

Who's authority would satisfy you? Are you looking for a "Consumers Reports" test or research study?

Why not? Were it available, yes. I have a problem with generalizations of any kind. And you are correct that most folks here who spoke up seem to like the backplates, et al. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that those who speak up are the only ones with opinions. They are like the "clinical population" who just happen to be studied because they show up in the clinic. The data are therefore skewed as they do not include ALL the population of potential study subjects. There are also thousands who are using jackets with the same claims ("they are the best," yadda yadda...).
It would seem to me that there's an opportunity here to do some interesting research, and certainly useful stuff, since we are, after all, dependent for our lives upon these things.
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, because I simply don't know. I do know experienced divers who have used both, and extensively, and some of them say they "like" the jackets better.
So my question is this: who's "right?" I'm not quite as cynical as you are about instructors, having been fortunate to have, I believe, some extremely good ones: one of whom preferred the old ScubaPro Classic jacket style BC, and who was quite probably one of the most experienced divers I ever met.
Methinks that this issue isn't perhaps as important as how comfortable one is in the specific BC of choice.
But yes, Cool...were there "data" I'd want to see it. Apparently it's all anecdotal, at least here. Not bad, that, just needs to be considered with a "grain of salt" (or sand.. IMHO)

 

[The Kraken]

Well said, SeaKat.

One does have to consider the population from which are derived most of the opinions on the ScubaBoard. Like you, I don't think the ScubaBoard is a true representation of the universal scubadiving population.

the K

 

[Rick Inman]

If we could get 1000 ScubaBoard divers (500 jacket divers, 500 BP/Wing divers) in one location for a dive, we could settle this thing.

Sea Kat could watch the jacket divers dive first, and evaluate their overall skill level. Then the BP/W divers would make their dive.

After that, Sea Kat would have to choose which group she would want to be diving with for the next two decades.

Which group do you think she would choose?

Ya' know, there's nothing I hate more than spending a bunch of money on gear and then being told I spent my hard earned poorly. Especially if it's true. It just makes me want to dig in and defend myself even more - even if I'm wrong.

But hey, that's just me. I'm sure everyone else is beyond that kind of thing. :05:

 

[SeaKat]

lol..funny guy....if a tad cynical, don'tcha' think? What makes ya' think I'd choose to dive with any group merely based upon the BCs they choose to wear? Frankly, I don't care what others choose to do as long as they've logged the same number of (safe) ascents as descents, and not merely by luck or accident. I dove with a guy in Cozumel who had gear from The Dark Ages (well maintained I might add), and I"d dive with him again in a heartbeat.
I am, however, interested in keeping current, so to speak, with information to make MY OWN decisions. And I take my learning where I can get it.

But hey, that's just me. I'm sure everyone else is beyond that kind of thing.
...so to speak..
SeaKat (with a 'K')

 

[Rick Inman]

lol..funny guy....if a tad cynical, don'tcha' think?
SeaKat (with a 'K')

K - fixed!

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm not trying to be flippant,

But of course, you were (grin)

Well actually no I was not, however I do know how......

Who's authority would satisfy you? Are you looking for a "Consumers Reports" test or research study?

Why not? Were it available, yes.

I have a problem with generalizations of any kind. And you are correct that most folks here who spoke up seem to like the backplates, et al. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that those who speak up are the only ones with opinions. They are like the "clinical population" who just happen to be studied because they show up in the clinic. The data are therefore skewed as they do not include ALL the population of potential study subjects. There are also thousands who are using jackets with the same claims ("they are the best," yadda yadda...).
It would seem to me that there's an opportunity here to do some interesting research, and certainly useful stuff, since we are, after all, dependent for our lives upon these things.
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, because I simply don't know. I do know experienced divers who have used both, and extensively, and some of them say they "like" the jackets better.
So my question is this: who's "right?" I'm not quite as cynical as you are about instructors, having been fortunate to have, I believe, some extremely good ones: one of whom preferred the old ScubaPro Classic jacket style BC, and who was quite probably one of the most experienced divers I ever met.
Methinks that this issue isn't perhaps as important as how comfortable one is in the specific BC of choice.
But yes, Cool...were there "data" I'd want to see it. Apparently it's all anecdotal, at least here. Not bad, that, just needs to be considered with a "grain of salt" (or sand.. IMHO)

Your question concerns a matter of opinion, not fact. Consumer Reports et al try to focus on tangible quanitiative measures, not opinion polls. If you want to rely on polls, ScubaBoard is as good (or bad) a place to run one. Good in that you can get many responses fairly cheaply and easily, bad in that the sample is likely to not be random.

Look at your question: (taken from your post #66)

that one was always being pushed face forward. Has this tendency been dealt with?

Apparently 1000's of current users either have dealt with it or are lying, or maybe like being face first at the surface. (that's flippance )

If you are looking for "proof" that BP&W inherently, unavoidably force you onto your face, or do not, you won't find it.

If you want many, many accounts that a properly setup BP&W can offer superb performance, and be comfortable at the surface you can find them here.

Regards,


Tobin

 

[SeaKat]

Well actually no I was not, however I do know how......

SeaKat replies:
I'll just bet you do too

Your question concerns a matter of opinion, not fact. Consumer Reports et al try to focus on tangible quanitiative measures, not opinion polls.

SeaKat replies:
Exactly my point: it seems to be all opinion here. No where did I say that was "bad"...merely not necessarily representative of the true truth.

Apparently 1000's of current users either have dealt with it or are lying, or maybe like being face first at the surface. (that's flippance )

SeaKat replies:
No, that's a bit of defensiveness, IMHO. Never ceases to amaze me at how a simple question can generate it. If you will reread my posts, you'll see that I do not take sides, merely ask questions. See below (again)

Originally Posted by SeaKat
that one was always being pushed face forward. Has this tendency been dealt with?

That's a question, based upon the observations and experiences of people with whom I have spoken, and a number of others I "read" here. That does not assume a position on my part at all. It merely asks a question based upon anecdotal information. And it was confirmed, here, that it does happen. The difficulty seems to be in the agreement about the reasons WHY it happens.
If I am to take anecdotal information as the current "gospel", then I have to take it from both sides of the issue, not merely from the most vocal proponents of one side or another.

If you are looking for "proof" that BP&W inherently, unavoidably force you onto your face, or do not, you won't find it.

SeaKat replies

And there it is. The answer, presently, I was seeking. Can't imagine why precisely it took so long to get.
Listen, I'm here asking questions. If my questions put either one side or the other on the defensive, cause them to be cynical, flippant, whatever, then that is, in and of itself, a kind of information which I fold into the mix.
Apparently this question is sufficient to make folks testy, and if that is so, then it suggests that there may indeed, BE a problem that cannot be satisfactorily resolved by EVERYONE, for whatever reason. Perhaps there are physiological reasons why some folks can seemingly resolve the upright or face down situation and some cannot. Perhaps there are reasons that go beyond merely weighting and strapping and training. I don't know. I'm not suggesting that one is better than another. I said earlier that I DON'T know which is better. And that's why I logged onto to this thread: seeking answers.
Looked like I got more of them than even I bargained for (now THAT'S being flippant.....wry grin....)

 

[cool_hardware52]

SeaKat,

You asked if the tendancy had been dealt with. Easy to answer: Yes apparently 1000's have found how to deal with it. Lets say the members of ScubaBoard are a skewed sample, say 90% BP&W and 10% jacket. That still does not change the fact that many, many "have dealt" with it.

It only took the Wright Brothers to "deal with" powered flight to demonstrate it was possible.

You asked for Data, my point is there never will be "test data", only opinions. If only opinions are available, then many, many are available right here, both pro and con.

It's like asking for "Data" on which hammers are most likely to smash your fingers, used properly, with sufficent training, none.


Tobin

 

[SeaKat]

It's like asking for "Data" on which hammers are most likely to smash your fingers, used properly, with sufficent training, none.


You are absolutely correct, CoolHardware. Improper hammer use can hurt.

However, one is less likely to die by hammer than by BC, relatively speaking. Therefore, I am more interested in trying to find out what, if any, 'data' were available to back up the generalizations (which we ALL make from time to time.)
All ya' had to say was "there are no data, but lots of opinions, and the predominant ones on this thread seem to be in favor of backplates, etc." And, perhaps after a few more questions relative to why folks felt the way they did, I would have gone away just like that, to some other thread in search of other kinds of information. I'm really very easy to please in case anyone is interested (which I daresay isn't most likely the case . Just answer the question, 'yes', 'no', 'i dunno', 'because'....yadda yadda.
I have no agenda other than the acquisition of knowledge, and as I said before, I'll take it anywhere I can find it. Learning is rarely a linear process, requiring zig zags through the quagmire of bias and prejudice. Both of which abound in the dive community, no different than any other "community." I'm still trying to figure out where the beef is, however, since the technology is always changing, and often driven by the quest for new (and cool ..grin) hardware...
Before I spend another bazillion dollars on more toys, I want to make sure that they are toys I can live with.
Literally.

 

[SeanQ]

However, one is less likely to die by hammer than by BC, relatively speaking.

I wonder how long it will take for someone to dig up those statistics? I'm curious to know.