Basic Amateur diving service business questions

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Would you guys be able to answer my questions by any chance?
@Lake Hickory Scuba @tbone1004


Hello @EireDiver606, I will try my best to answer your questions.

My main questions are:
1. What are the price variables? How should I charge? Hourly/depth/size of yacht/. Simply what should I charge?
For example, tomorrow I am searching for a phone in a small 4m x 4m known area which contains an important SIM card by a guy who works on a big yacht. It is in shallow water probably max 5m/15 feet. I also have to rent a tank which costs 20€ as my own is getting a hydrostatic test. I also have to wear a 7/5mm farmer John wetsuit.

2. What tools do I need to clean/ polish a yachts hull? (sailing yacht). I was shown one before by someone but can’t remember the specific name of it.
Should I use a spool or reel to circle search for an item? What’s the best way to search for small items in mucky water when the items have probably sunk into the mud a little?

3. What’s the situation with payment? Should I ask people to pay me before or after? What happens if I don’t find the item, do I charge less or the same amount as I would have if I found it?

1. Prices will vary based off the service you are providing and the resources and equipment you have to do an underwater job. How you charge will be based off your capability to complete the job you are being hired to do, area competition, insurance requirements, etc. I'm not sure anyone can give you a definitive answer on how much you should charge. Here in our lake, I charge $150 - $200 for a hull cleaning. This being said, I also own and operate a boat repair facility, approximately 600 feet above my Dive Center / Marina. For an additional $50, we do a complete Detail job on a vessel, including pulling it from the water and putting it back in. Most will choose this option over the in water hull cleaning. For search and recovery jobs, we have what we consider small salvage and large salvage. For small salvage, we sometimes will not run that through the company, and we let the individual diver set his own rates. Just as an example, I charge based off location, depth, accessibility, and time of the year. In short, typically I will charge $50 per hour for basic search and recovery (I should clarify SEARCH only, they pay even if I don't find the object they lost) directly off land and down to a depth of 20 feet. If I have to use a vessel (their boat), then I charge $100 per hour for the search and recovery (once again SEARCH only) down to a depth of 20 feet. And if I have to use one of my vessels, then the price goes to $200 per hour down to a depth of 20 feet. 20 feet is a key variable for me, anything deeper then my policy is, there must be 2 divers. Thus, the price doubles. For large salvage, sunken boats, cars in the water, and even plane crashes, we charge per foot. So a 24 foot boat would be a minimum of $150 per foot. The base price would be $3600 just to raise the boat, and then additional fees to keep it floating until it could be pulled from the water. Boat owners with insurance would typically only pay the deductible, and then we deal directly with the insurance company for full payment.

2. Hull cleaning for me is kept simple. I use a stiff brush and environmental safe soap. I buy mine through a distributor occasionally, but most of the time I will buy from Amazon. You will need to check your local laws to find out what you can legally put in the water way where you live. No matter how much training you have (WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART ), searching for a lost item takes patience and practice. I have been very fortunate to have been doing this type of work for a very long time. I have found murder weapons buried in a foot of silt, 30 feet deep, without a medal detector, in zero visibility. I have found firearms 20 feet deep in a current around 6 knots, with zero visibility. I have found bodies 100 feet deep, with zero visibilty, with 2 knots current, approximately 100 yards in front of the dam that makes our lake. These are just a few examples, and they all have one thing in common. LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say this because, over the years I have done hundreds of searches with no success. It part of the business, and you have to learn to accept it. You also have to learn how to deal with people. Most will not want to pay you unless you recover their lost item. We have everyone sign a contract before we get wet. The contract states, they pay for the search, even if we are unable to locate their lost item.

3. Ideally, payment before you dive is great, but in the real world this doesn't always happen. For heavy salvage, we give the customer 30 days to pay. Then we will seek judicial help for said payment. We have done so many boat recoveries, where the person could not pay, and ended up signing the title of the vessel over to us for the payment. We turn around and fix the boat up and sell it to get our money back and then some. When you price a job, make sure you are clear in regards to what the customer is paying for. There are times I have explained that it was cheaper for the customer to just go buy another pair of sunglasses then to pay me to go look for theirs. This being said, (UNCLE BRYAN TECH TIP ALERT), make sure you get as much info about where the lost item is before you give a price. Because once you give a price, and if they decided they do not want to pay it, then, well you know where to go to find it anyways, and most states will have a law in place that protects you from having to give it back. In short a Finders Keepers law. Several times I have been in this situation, and even had people take me to court over it. The Judge has always backed me, stating the customer still has to pay for my services before I am required to give the item back. I would encourage you to speak with an attorney before you take my word for it though. Hopefully this answered your questions.
 
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I do a little of this kind of stuff. I live by a small remote marina. I usually charge $100 to do basic stuff like cut rope out, clean keel coolers, check zinks, search for stuff. The price goes up if it's melted into the cutlass and anything extra. I had a few times that took 2 tanks of air to clear some webbing that was melted in and so much that you couldn't see the wheel. So I usually give them a range up front and I try to always charge the lowest I can. I did have a yacht wind up a bunch of crab line up and then wrap a steel framed crap pot around a wheel. It took a long time with a hacksaw blade to cut through the bars.
What I've learned. Victronics makes several different knives. The longer blunt nose ones work great.

Also for looking for an item I will have them drop a weighted line from the closest cleat or something to tie a rope too. I will give it about 10' of slack and fasten it. That way I can hold the slack and swim slightly larger circle patterns. And the visibility is usually a few feet.
 
Hello @EireDiver606, I will try my best to answer your questions.



1. Prices will vary based off the service you are providing and the resources and equipment you have to do an underwater job. How you charge will be based off your capability to complete the job you are being hired to do, area competition, insurance requirements, etc. I'm not sure anyone can give you a definitive answer on how much you should charge. Here in our lake, I charge $150 - $200 for a hull cleaning. This being said, I also own and operate a boat repair facility, approximately 600 feet above my Dive Center / Marina. For an additional $50, we do a complete Detail job on a vessel, including pulling it from the water and putting it back in. Most will choose this option over the in water hull cleaning. For search and recovery jobs, we have what we consider small salvage and large salvage. For small salvage, we sometimes will not run that through the company, and we let the individual diver set his own rates. Just as an example, I charge based off location, depth, accessibility, and time of the year. In short, typically I will charge $50 per hour for basic search and recovery (I should clarify SEARCH only, they pay even if I don't find the object they lost) directly off land and down to a depth of 20 feet. If I have to use a vessel (their boat), then I charge $100 per hour for the search and recovery (once again SEARCH only) down to a depth of 20 feet. And if I have to use one of my vessels, then the price goes to $200 per hour down to a depth of 20 feet. 20 feet is a key variable for me, anything deeper then my policy is, there must be 2 divers. Thus, the price doubles. For large salvage, sunken boats, cars in the water, and even plane crashes, we charge per foot. So a 24 foot boat would be a minimum of $150 per foot. The base price would be $3600 just to raise the boat, and then additional fees to keep it floating until it could be pulled from the water. Boat owners with insurance would typically only pay the deductible, and then we deal directly with the insurance company for full payment.

2. Hull cleaning for me is kept simple. I use a stiff brush and environmental safe soap. I buy mine through a distributor occasionally, but most of the time I will buy from Amazon. You will need to check your local laws to find out what you can legally put in the water way where you live. No matter how much training you have (WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART ), searching for a lost item takes patience and practice. I have been very fortunate to have been doing this type of work for a very long time. I have found murder weapons buried in a foot of silt, 30 feet deep, without a medal detector, in zero visibility. I have found firearms 20 feet deep in a current around 6 knots, with zero visibility. I have found bodies 100 feet deep, with zero visibilty, with 2 knots current, approximately 100 yards in front of the dam that makes our lake. These are just a few examples, and they all have one thing in common. LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say this because, over the years I have done hundreds of searches with no success. It part of the business, and you have to learn to accept it. You also have to learn how to deal with people. Most will not want to pay you unless you recover their lost item. We have everyone sign a contract before we get wet. The contract states, they pay for the search, even if we are unable to locate their lost item.

3. Ideally, payment before you dive is great, but in the real world this doesn't always happen. For heavy salvage, we give the customer 30 days to pay. Then we will seek judicial help for said payment. We have done so many boat recoveries, where the person could not pay, and ended up signing the title of the vessel over to us for the payment. We turn around and fix the boat up and sell it to get our money back and then some. When you price a job, make sure you are clear in regards to what the customer is paying for. There are times I have explained that it was cheaper for the customer to just go buy another pair of sunglasses then to pay me to go look for theirs. This being said, (UNCLE BRYAN TECH TIP ALERT), make sure you get as much info about where the lost item is before you give a price. Because once you give a price, and if they decided they do not want to pay it, then, well you know where to go to find it anyways, and most states will have a law in place that protects you from having to give it back. In short a Finders Keepers law. Several times I have been in this situation, and even had people take me to court over it. The Judge has always backed me, stating the customer still has to pay for my services before I am required to give the item back. I would encourage you to speak with an attorney before you take my word for it though. Hopefully this answered your questions.
Thank you for your detailed reply
 
I did the quick phone search yesterday in 6m of water. It was a bit iffy because it was my first dive in 10 months, my first solo dive, first dive in new gear, and it was like 2 foot viz underneath a large yacht.

I found it, no problem after 30 mins as it was the same colour as the floor.

Lesson learned, it would be much more practical to use a reel or a spool to do a circle search where the owner says he dropped it.

Had a little problem equalizing at the start, as I haven’t dived in ages and am new to diving.

How long did it take until you guys could equalise really quickly
Why did they want a phone that had been underwater?
 
Why did they want a phone that had been underwater?
Why did they want a phone that had been underwater?
He wanted the SIM card or SD card, I can’t remember. He said he had lots of photo on it that were not protected.
 
Erie-
Whenever there is some variation on "I want to start a business in a field I have never had work experience with" there are some factors that really are the same, worldover, regardless of the business type. For instance, are you familiar with the marina environment? Are you aware that marinas present a special risk of electrocution to swimmers, if even only one boat has one improper ground connection on board? Would that make you rethink the need for commercial liability, disability, or life insurance?
And considering the things that may be in the water, might that want you reconsider using a dry suit rather than a wet suit?
Then there are the things incidental to running a small business. Liability insurance. For instance, you accept a job to clear a prop. And let's say you can't make it, because there are no tanks available. Then the boater turns around and sues you for two days of marina charges--because you didn't show up and he got stuck at that dock. These things happen.
Yes, you can 'fly below the radar' and that's an old and honored way of doing things. But there are also usually established divers (and landside hull cleaners) in any area. Horn in on "their" territory and they may report the unlicensed competition. And marinas themselves, often prohibit unlicensed and unbonded (uninsured) contractors completely. Maybe you're in the last "casual" spot in the world...I'm just saying, it is increasing harder, and more expensive, to just say "I can do that, if you pay me."
Unions, regulations, taxes, competitors...like alligators in a swamp, they're just not visible unless you know where to look for them.
 
Erie-
Whenever there is some variation on "I want to start a business in a field I have never had work experience with" there are some factors that really are the same, worldover, regardless of the business type. For instance, are you familiar with the marina environment? Are you aware that marinas present a special risk of electrocution to swimmers, if even only one boat has one improper ground connection on board? Would that make you rethink the need for commercial liability, disability, or life insurance?
And considering the things that may be in the water, might that want you reconsider using a dry suit rather than a wet suit?
Then there are the things incidental to running a small business. Liability insurance. For instance, you accept a job to clear a prop. And let's say you can't make it, because there are no tanks available. Then the boater turns around and sues you for two days of marina charges--because you didn't show up and he got stuck at that dock. These things happen.
Yes, you can 'fly below the radar' and that's an old and honored way of doing things. But there are also usually established divers (and landside hull cleaners) in any area. Horn in on "their" territory and they may report the unlicensed competition. And marinas themselves, often prohibit unlicensed and unbonded (uninsured) contractors completely. Maybe you're in the last "casual" spot in the world...I'm just saying, it is increasing harder, and more expensive, to just say "I can do that, if you pay me."
Unions, regulations, taxes, competitors...like alligators in a swamp, they're just not visible unless you know where to look for them.

I'd bet there are a lot of "last 'casual'" spots left. I was just talking to a representative from a marina vendor, he said there were well over 200 public marinas in WA state alone. If your good and honest with your rates you will get referrals and repeats.

I don't know about hull cleaning though. I've turned down a lot of those requests.

Btw last phone I looked for was underwater (25') for over 3 hours before I started looking and found with less then 100psi in my 108cf hp tank. So figure at least an hour of bottom time. He was family and he had all the pictures of his new baby on it. It was an iPhone and worked fine after a freshwater rinse and sitting in rice for 3 days.
 

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