Band Physics Question

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Craig Winnerman

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Me-Palm Harbor, FL Boat lives in Ozona
I have a 48" Biller that I use with 2 bands loaded from my hip. I have been using 9/16"-20" bands. What are the advantages or disadvantages to using 22"-5/8" 0r 26"-3/4" bands??? I know the larger bands will be harder to pull, but shorter distance. It there any physics properties of kinetic energy that would suggest and advantage of one combination over another?
 
Considerations are peak and average thrust (force) and distance. Traction(potential force) is related to modulus of the rubber. Also, there is the matter of internal friction and inertia. In other words, the harder the band is to lock in, the higher the peak thrust and also this; commercial latex has varying properties determined by the manufacturer. In today's world, these manufacturers are responsive to requests from spearfishing vendors and have designed special formulations. Biller coated amber rubber has a rep for being soft. So, one may find that a sample of black or amber rubber from somebody like Neptonics may have significantly more "snap". In fact, several vendors, including on EBay and elsewhere, also sell the same, so called, high modulus rubber. Now, to the physics.

You might be able to estimate the kinetic energy by measuring the peak force in pounds and the distance travelled. That would be the distance from full tension to relaxation. This is defined as "work", W = f X d........work equals force X distance . Weight or "mass" of the arrow is important as is the average force of the rubber band which I guess could be defined as peak strength in pounds divided by two. Whatever amount of work is done requires an equal kinetic energy to perform the work. KE = 1/2 mv^2......also F = ma (Newton's second law). A force with an average value of 50 pounds pushing two pounds over three feet is addressed by F = ma with the result; a = 25 fps^2........we know that v = at and also, S = 1/2 at^2 where S is distance of band travel..........solving the second equation for t we get 1/2 sec. Inserting the time and accelleration into v = at then the velocity is 12.5 ft/sec. KE = 1/2 mv^2 = 156 ft-lbs.

We can see from this, v = at and KE = 1/2mv^2 that the energy of the arrow is proportional to the square of the velocity. So, velocity is very important and this is directly related to distance and force. Also, it makes sense to increase the force by installing thicker rubber and that a small difference in stretch is not as important as average force. For example, it is apparent that increasing force by 30% would be a good trade off for increasing velocity and energy even when losing 10% of pull length (W = F X D).

As a practical matter, due to internal resistance and inertia of extremely thick bands and, on the other hand, low traction of the small bands (being a function of total mass and modulus of rubber), that a mid size band would be more efficient if it can be cocked without undue increase of length and consequent shortening of travel. Remember, the volume of rubber and total mass of rubber increases much faster than the diameter of the band, simple geometry of a cylinder, so small changes in diameter have a big influence on several things. My conclusion is that two, 5/8 bands will produce the best solution of energy delivered. However, it may be a good idea to learn chest loading as this is a principal means to improve pull strength.

PS
It would be beneficial for a spearfisherman to learn to fabricate bands from bulk rubber so as to allow some experimentation without excessive cost.

Pesky
 
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1 or 2 20" 5/8" or 3/4"' bands.Length is normally 3.5 to 1 stretch ratio for maximum power.

A 48' with probly run around a muzzle to wishbone slot in the 35" range so that's 10" band length per side x 3.5 =35 inches.22" will be easier to cock but a little less power.
 
try freeshafting with a single 20" - 5/8 band. If you can't load it, learn to chest load or hit the gym.

Spearfishing Specialities gray rubbers have excellent snap and last a long time.
 
I have a 48" Biller that I use with 2 bands loaded from my hip. I have been using 9/16"-20" bands. What are the advantages or disadvantages to using 22"-5/8" 0r 26"-3/4" bands??? I know the larger bands will be harder to pull, but shorter distance. It there any physics properties of kinetic energy that would suggest and advantage of one combination over another?

Are you looking to get more power out of the gun? If so, just switch to 20" 5/8. By lengthening the bands you're losing the power gained by increasing the diameter.
I made this switch on a Riffe comp3x and it gave it quite a bit more jolt.
 
Spearfishing Specialities gray rubbers have excellent snap and last a long time.

Probably the other dynamic I've really noticed is the big difference between different manufactures's rubber composition. And even between batch lots. I'll agree that SS is more consistent and therefore predictable between manufacturing lots, but in other's the pull strength and snap given a consistent band length can be huge.

I think Mori has done the most extensive testing and publication of his tests that I've seen. Each piece of rubber has a power or 'work' dimension and bigger definitely is not better. Just my opinion, when freeshafting {ie longer shots} I need a consistent long thrust not a quick short thrust (work) or my accuracy and shot placement diminish significantly.

For my 52" Comm Rhino, the 9/16 has the correct balance of range of thrust and initial acceleration to control shaft whip, yet deliver the accuracy that is so crucial for shot placement. If you gut shot or middle shot the fish, the filet shot is crud when you destroy the meal. A head shot is vital when freeshafting and reducing reload times.

3/4" bands may be fine for a tuna/blue water hunting with an enclosed track to minimize shaft whip, but on a Biller 48 with the line attached, I think you'll introduce more shaft whip and start missing easy shots.

pescador775's post on the 'work' is excellent because he illustrates how the thicker bands will do all the work in a shorter distance, thus potentially producing shaft whip. By using a smaller band, the 'work' is spread over a longer distance and reduces shaft whip. The downside of shaft whip is all the lost/wasted energy going side to side instead of in a straight line resulting in loss of accuracy. And we all know accuracy kills.

P.S. I kinda hope Chad Carney will jump in here too because he has alot more experience with the reel spool freediving Wongs and other guns.
 
The stock Biller 48 shafts are fairly short and thick and have huge rigidity. The arrow's haft is well supported by the barrel. However, the momentum (kick) of very heavy bands will cause the mahogany gun to jump producing about a 4 inch pattern which would be unacceptable to many spearos. This is most likely to occur with 3, 9/16 hi-mod bands. Heavy loads can be used on the teak gun with good results. Adding the inertia of a reel will help some also.
 
I don't have any problem with shaft whip shooting 54",60" or 66" shafts outta my 54" Biller.Even when I have used 3x5/8"x22"-24" bands lineshafting wary cobia.With a single 3'4" it ain't gonna happen.

Recoil is mostly linear because my normal gun is ballasted to be balanced with a shaft in.That also keeps it from floating off as it's wood(a 54" Teak LTD)

The only guns I have actually experienced shaft whip in were thinner shafts in euro style guns.I take probably 3000 to 5000 shots a year and keep coming back to the same conclusion,"simpler is better" A durable gun with as few bands as possible shooting shafts and tips with durable construction will put groceries on the table more reliably.
 

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