Balanced Rig - GUE - NEWB

[Brett Hatch]

I've been diving n 8/7mm wetsuit in cold water. With a steel tank, steel backplate, about 8 pounds of lead on the belt, my rig is neutral near the surface with near-empty tank. Back of the envelope math suggests around 9+5+8=21 pounds negative if I were to jump in naked, which sounds doable. Have not yet tested out dumping my wing on the bottom w/ a full tank, I will give that a shot next time I'm in good, deep conditions with a familiar buddy. Assuming that I'm able to ascend, I buy the argument that no easily ditch-able weight is required at depth.

Up to this point, I have been wearing my weight belt under my crotch strap. Partially out of convenience, and partially as a safety measure, since it is much less likely to accidentally dump the belt at depth, which seems to be incredibly dangerous, and very likely to cause bad DCI. However, I hadn't considered the issue of ditching upon arrival to the surface. Seems that latter "safety" argument would be in conflict with the desire to have easily ditch-able weight.

On the whole, it seems to me that wearing belt on the inside of the strap is safer, but I have an open mind. For those of you who dive crotch-strap + belt, do you wear the belt on the outside or the inside? Does DAN (or similar authority) have any recommendations on the matter?

Thanks

 

[Lorenzoid]

@Brett Hatch , you’ve hit the conundrum on the head. From having read a lot of these “balanced rig” threads, I have come to believe that the likelihood of needing to ditch weight on the surface is greater than the likelihood of inadvertently losing a weight belt at depth. At least for no-deco open water diving, I wear a weight belt over my crotch strap when I need that much lead.

 

[Brett Hatch]

@Brett Hatch , you’ve hit the conundrum on the head. From having read a lot of these “balanced rig” threads, I have come to believe that the likelihood of needing to ditch weight on the surface is greater than the likelihood of inadvertently losing a weight belt at depth. At least for no-deco open water diving, I wear a weight belt over my crotch strap when I need that much lead.

I see. Well if this is a contentious issue, it's not my intention to derail this thread with a religious war . With the belt on the outside, I would anticipate issues donning or doffing your BP+W / BCD while in the water (whether on the surface or below). Have you ever tried doing this? A couple months back I removed my BP+W, adjusted some stuff, and donned it again on the surface in some good, sporty chop. It was already kind of a PITA without the belt in the way, but I suppose you don't have to completely remove the belt in order to make room for the crotch strap. Probably not a big deal.

 

[CT-Rich]

There are plenty of ways to secure ditchable weights so they are unlikely to be accidentally dropped. The first is to make sure you are not buying junk. A plastic/nylon buckle on a weight belt is much more like to become undone than a metal buckle. Diving with a dive op supplied belt in 2018, I lost the belt a couple of times because the buckle didn’t hold and on entering the water, they just continued towards the bottom without me. The nylon teeth were worn down and simply didn’t grip the belt for sh*t. Next time I travel I will bring my own metal buckled belt with me. I have had weight belts with metal buckles last twenty plus years. If you are concerned about losing your belt it is likely a operator error or a crappy piece of gear (which, coincidentally, is also the diver’s responsibility)
If you did lose your 8 lbs weight belt on the bottom, you could simply reach down and grab it. Suit compression is likely to be enough to offset most, if not all the potential runaway buoyancy you might have on dropping your belt.
Finally, having the belt inboard of your crotch strap, means that if someone (or you) tries to release the weights in an emergency, they will drop down between your legs like a loaded diaper, thus rendering them inaccessible.

 

[KevinNM]

That has to be the single worst option I ever heard...

you get to the surface. You are tired.., everything is going sideways. You struggle to stay at the surface... you you still have 2/3 of a tank... The swell has picked up. You. Need to deploy your DSMB, because you were swimming up your rig. If stop kicking you start to sink....you need to find your marker and then fill it.... you can’t see the boat..... are facing away from it or have you drifted on the swim up.... you need to keep on the surface while you **** around with th DSMB. Keep kicking.... You still have air.... where the **** is the boat.... damn the neck on this wetsuit never seemed that tight....

When it goes sideways, you think those eight or ten pounds of lead being out of reach are a better choice than just giving a tug and catching your breath?
Training doesn’t take away the fear you might not get to go home. It will be there. Training gets you past it. It may never happen to you, but you will not want to throw away an almost full bottle of air on the surface. It is so easy to drop weights and know that no matter how much you f*cked up, you are staying on the surface.

If you splash in with your air off and you start sinking like a rock... a quick tug on a handle a you a heading home.

Dying for the tiny, transient advantage of perfect trim makes no sense at all. Lead is cheap.

Well, if it’s drowning or ditching gear I’m ditching gear. If you choose to drown after desperately treading water to keep your negatively bouyant rig afloat instead that’s OK with me, everyone has the right to choose how they go out. But either way that rig is going to the bottom.

 

[CT-Rich]

Well, if it’s drowning or ditching gear I’m ditching gear. If you choose to drown after desperately treading water to keep your negatively bouyant rig afloat instead that’s OK with me, everyone has the right to choose how they go out. But either way that rig is going to the bottom.

Yes, I suppose that is pretty obvious, the point is you should never put yourself into a situation where you are going to jettison a full tank of gas to stay buoyant. If you and your your rig can’t easily stay at the surface, maybe, just maybe, you want to reconfigure it so you can jettison something other than your rig.... like something heavy and relatively cheap....

 

[rjack321]

I've been diving n 8/7mm wetsuit in cold water. With a steel tank, steel backplate, about 8 pounds of lead on the belt, my rig is neutral near the surface with near-empty tank. Back of the envelope math suggests around 9+5+8=21 pounds negative if I were to jump in naked, which sounds doable. Have not yet tested out dumping my wing on the bottom w/ a full tank, I will give that a shot next time I'm in good, deep conditions with a familiar buddy. Assuming that I'm able to ascend, I buy the argument that no easily ditch-able weight is required at depth.

Up to this point, I have been wearing my weight belt under my crotch strap. Partially out of convenience, and partially as a safety measure, since it is much less likely to accidentally dump the belt at depth, which seems to be incredibly dangerous, and very likely to cause bad DCI. However, I hadn't considered the issue of ditching upon arrival to the surface. Seems that latter "safety" argument would be in conflict with the desire to have easily ditch-able weight.

On the whole, it seems to me that wearing belt on the inside of the strap is safer, but I have an open mind. For those of you who dive crotch-strap + belt, do you wear the belt on the outside or the inside? Does DAN (or similar authority) have any recommendations on the matter?

Thanks

Under the crotch strap is fine for me.
I have had a belt come partially loose UW and was grateful the crotch strap helped hold it in place. If you need to actually ditch it, you are so often vertical on the surface (kicking) that as long as you actually undo your harness buckle the weight naturally slides down your legs.

 

[johnkendall]

The elephant in the room that everyone seems to be ignoring, is not ditchable vs non-ditchable weight. It's thick wetsuits. If the wetsuit is 10kg positively buoyant at the surface then it'll only be 2.5kg buoyant at 30m, so has lost 7.5kgs of buoyancy. You are now an extra 7.5kgs overweighted.
The right answer here is to use a drysuit instead of a wetsuit. They don't compress at depth (as you add gas to equalize) and so don't have this issue.

HTH
John

 

[CT-Rich]

The elephant in the room that everyone seems to be ignoring, is not ditchable vs non-ditchable weight. It's thick wetsuits. If the wetsuit is 10kg positively buoyant at the surface then it'll only be 2.5kg buoyant at 30m, so has lost 7.5kgs of buoyancy. You are now an extra 7.5kgs overweighted.
The right answer here is to use a drysuit instead of a wetsuit. They don't compress at depth (as you add gas to equalize) and so don't have this issue.

HTH
John

Wetsuits are far cheaper than a drysuit and can resist damage much more easily than a drysuit. When was the last time you saw a wetsuit diver scrub a dive because of a leak? A flooded drysuit can be just as catastrophic as a BCD failure. You dive the gear, the gear shouldn’t be diving you.

 

[rjack321]

The elephant in the room that everyone seems to be ignoring, is not ditchable vs non-ditchable weight. It's thick wetsuits. If the wetsuit is 10kg positively buoyant at the surface then it'll only be 2.5kg buoyant at 30m, so has lost 7.5kgs of buoyancy. You are now an extra 7.5kgs overweighted.
The right answer here is to use a drysuit instead of a wetsuit. They don't compress at depth (as you add gas to equalize) and so don't have this issue.

HTH
John

7.5kg plus the weight of gas in a reasonable single 11-16L (range) really isn't that hard to swim up. Its downright hard to be so negative in a single that you can't swim it up. A 7mm wetsuit with a single tank, 15 lb belt, and SS plate isn't some crazy suicide machine.

Doubles are a different story of course.