Bad weekend in Indonesia

[a-bad]

last month when I dove there, dive leader suggest to keep close to the wall is more safe, In worst case - very strong down current or smt like that... you can use "Gecko diving" (grab the rock or coral) I knew it's not good for coral reef but last choice is better than no choice.

 

[Wayan]

last month when I dove there, dive leader suggest to keep close to the wall is more safe, In worst case - very strong down current or smt like that... you can use "Gecko diving" (grab the rock or coral) I knew it's not good for coral reef but last choice is better than no choice.

Actually close to the wall is where you would normally expect to find down wellings (currents).

These currents are caused by water piling up on itself, whether it be tidal, from wind or other currents. This water is normally colder (denser) and thus heavier and so sinks below the warmer water

Swim away from the walls and you will get out of it.

 

[Bali Diver]

Actually close to the wall is where you would normally expect to find down wellings (currents).

These currents are caused by water piling up on itself, whether it be tidal, from wind or other currents. This water is normally colder (denser) and thus heavier and so sinks below the warmer water

Swim away from the walls and you will get out of it.

To a degree maybe.But close to wall everytime for me and if so how far out 1m.2m 5m etc..away would of took me down by then,would i take that chance, No and depends on what angle it was coming at also.

See you in Bali 1 day to go

Will you be diving around Wayan

Regarding my post before,checked date of diver sadly lost at Crystal bay 13th August one day before full moon
no way i would of been there.As i said Op's have a responsibility before money and just wondering now how many dives this poor lady had under her belt,very sad

 

[Quero]

To a degree maybe.But close to wall everytime for me and if so how far out 1m.2m 5m etc..away would of took me down by then,would i take that chance, No and depends on what angle it was coming at also.

Wayan is right. When you encounter a downcurrent coming off the reef flat at Penida, the best thing is to swim away from the wall. Downcurrents on those walls don't come at an angle. They are straight down. Moving away from the wall removes your body from the virtual "waterfall" of the water rushing down.

As i said Op's have a responsibility before money and just wondering now how many dives this poor lady had under her belt,very sad

I wouldn't be so quick to tar and feather the operator. According to press reports, the missing diver was not inexperienced; she had 70 dives to her credit.

 

[Bali Diver]

Wayan is right. When you encounter a downcurrent coming off the reef flat at Penida, the best thing is to swim away from the wall. Downcurrents on those walls don't come at an angle. They are straight down. Moving away from the wall removes your body from the virtual "waterfall" of the water rushing down.

I wouldn't be so quick to tar and feather the operator. According to press reports, the missing diver was not inexperienced; she had 70 dives to her credit.

Was talking general.I have never heard that or told that at Penida which is interesting.I would still think twice about doing that thanks for info,will mention that to a couple of friends in Bali who have dived those sites many times when i am out there



70 DIVES are not many really.The question I would ask would be how many dives in difficult currents have they been in,not in anyway i am questioning the poor lady and as for OP'S yes they have to take responsibility as i said i would not dive that site around full moon.maybe i am wrong about that then.maybe it is fine too.

 

[Quero]

The currents at Penida are produced principally by the movement of ocean water called the Indonesian Throughflow, not by tidal forces (full moon or not). The Indonesian Throughflow, which transfers enormous quantities of water between the Indian and Pacific Oceans, carries tremendous energy. The amount of water moved by the ITF is so massive that it boggles the imagination--in fact, it is measured in units called sverdrups invented specifically to describe such huge water movements. One sverdrup is equal to one million cubic meters of water per second. The estimate of the amount of water that passes through the ITF is between 20 and 22 sverdrups--20 to 22 million cubic meters of water per second, every second of every day, regardless of the phase of the moon.

In addition, the Throughflow creates extremely complex ocean dynamics that involve salinity, water temperature, interactions between diurnal and semi-diurnal tides, and other forces. I have yet to meet any dive guide on Nusa Lembongan or Nusa Penida who claims to be able to predict the currents at Crystal Bay or at Blue Corner (which, IMO, is an even more dangerous dive) with much confidence. They will all tell you that the currents can come up in a flash, unexpectedly. The closest call I have ever had, personally, was in a downcurrent at Blue Corner.

While we do not know what the exact precipitating cause of this tragedy was, I again caution against laying blame on the diver, the dive guide or anyone else. There must have been some mistake made, but we cannot know what nor by whom at this point. Furthermore, culpability and responsibility are two different things. If this diver indeed had 70 dives to her credit, I can see no reason to say that the operator acted irresponsibly in allowing her to do the dive. This diver was not fresh off a course with little understanding of her own abilities. She chose to do the dive, as we all do when we don our gear and splash in. Personal responsibility is of prime importance. This is why I disagree with your assessment that the operator must take responsibility for this accident.

 

[Bali Diver]

While we do not know what the exact precipitating cause of this tragedy was, I again caution against laying blame on the diver, the dive guide or anyone else. There must have been some mistake made, but we cannot know what nor by whom at this point. Furthermore, culpability and responsibility are two different things. If this diver indeed had 70 dives to her credit, I can see no reason to say that the operator acted irresponsibly in allowing her to do the dive. This diver was not fresh off a course with little understanding of her own abilities. She chose to do the dive, as we all do when we don our gear and splash in. Personal responsibility is of prime importance. This is why I disagree with your assessment that the operator must take responsibility for this accident.

Quero i understand about the indonesian free flow very well and indeed you have explained that very well also.But surely the tidal forces are much more stronger there at full moon to make things worse and even more harder to predict in a area which you rightly state is not possible to predict exactly.

Also yes we do not know fully what happened and i am not blaming the Op.guide or the poor lady if it has come across like that.What i am saying is OPS must take more responsibility who they take there and if condition are not good to start off with and yes of course agree that Personal responsibility is of prime importance also

 

[Quero]

But surely the tidal forces are much more stronger there at full moon to make things worse

Tides might complicate the issue... or maybe not! For example, are you in a position to say that the dive in question was not done at slack tide?

What i am saying is OPS must take more responsibility who they take there and if condition are not good to start off with

It certainly does sound like you are laying the responsibility on the op. What exactly do you feel was this op's error in taking this diver to this dive site on this day? My point is that attributing this accident to a lack of responsibility of the dive operator on the basis that there was a full moon at about that date is oversimplifying a very, very complex set of circumstances that contribute to currents around Penida--circumstances such that not even professional dive guides in the area are able to predict the effects of them. I have been on dives in the area where conditions were perfect one minute and treacherous the next. Literally the next minute.

 

[Cumbo]

I heard, that the rest of the group continued to make another dive after that - knowing that one of them was missing. Wow.

 

[idivethesea]

Well, for what its worth I'll through in my controversial two cents: (One of my close friends was friends with the girls in the accident so I know a least some of the detail 2nd hand)

The problem starts with the training received. I had a friend go through PADI certification at a popular dive center here in Thailand, I bit my tongue while I observed the entire program, it was poor at best and I told her she would not be able to dive until we did numerous dives together learning diving physics, buoyancy control and gaining confidence etc. She was taught to pass the test and that was about it, she had no idea WHY she had to breathe while surfacing. We used a balloon at depth to demonstrate the effects of pressure etc. I was furious with the dive center for not teaching basics but not much that I could do but wait until she finished. I shudder to think what would have happened if she attempted to dive alone after certification!

The diver in this story had but 50 dives and none were in even marginal conditions, she did not belong on that dive site. I believe strongly that divers should be taught the same as pilots: You and only you are in charge of your safety, this must be drilled in during training. I don't care what the DM or the boat crew tell you....you and only you make the decision on the dive site. Further a new diver should always dive with a very experienced diver, NOT including the DM of a group, until they reach a point of intermediate level diver and then dive only locations that meet their level of experience. All of this should be repeatedly drilled in during training. Her sister was equally inexperienced and could not possibly function as a buddy in time of a genuine emergency. This was an accident waiting to happen. IMHO, we place far to much responsibility/accountability on the DM and staff, they cannot possibly insure the safety of the countless poorly trained new divers entering the water these days.

Myself and many of my very experienced diving friends have and still do on occasion sit out a dive because we don't like something about the conditions or the way the DM and crew are approaching the pre-dive etc. You do not ever let the DM override your sense of judgement about your skills matched with the conditions......ever.

I'm not going to debate the merits of the buddy system but I think it is used far to much as a crutch. My daughter started diving with me when she was 12, what good was she to me as a buddy? She was certified but that was about it, certainly incapable of bailing me out of a serious safety situation. Btw, she did 100+ dives with me in all types of conditions and we did fun drills on most of our dives, only then could she be out of a 10 foot range of me while diving.

I think that all divers that intend on making diving a lifelong passion should go through a solo diving certification course. This does not mean you should necessarily dive solo, it just means that you are adequately trained to get yourself out of a bad situation, or should I say better prepared not to get into that situation in the first place.

Just another 2 cents......