Bad attitudes about solo diving are still prevalent

[Christopher Griffin]

apologies everyone, forgot to reference the first two quotes, however theses agencies are indeed businesses and have business models, the purpose of a business model is to be profitable. and back to my statement that it is far more profitable to break down the original YMCA training syllabus which could take up to 6 months to complete, and was far more in-depth than the current training programmes currently used.
But there again you were also showing that you researched your answer taking passages out of A History of NAUI rather than knowing it in the first place. This is not about scoring points, but rather about the subject of "bad attitudes about solo diving are still prevalent" the only people on her which constantly go off topic are the people against solo diving, and then seem to spit out there dummies when they don't like what others say. Qualifications and experience aside its a simple discussion, with differing of opinions.

I do hold degrees in business and social law, so do understand that business has a habit of creating laws to ensure their profit margins, right or wrong, but when business infringes my social liberties (may be phrased differently in the US and other countries), by trying to make a ruling that I cannot dive solo unless I have a piece of plastic with a photo and the words solo diver or self reliant diver that's cost X amount of pounds/dollars and then enforcing by telling affiliates that they cannot allow solo diving or they will loose their affiliation, I find this unacceptable

 

[boulderjohn]

d back to my statement that it is far more profitable to break down the original YMCA training syllabus which could take up to 6 months to complete, and was far more in-depth than the current training programmes currently used.

You also missed the point of my post that showed that breaking down a 6-month YMCA curriculum is not what actually happened. The YMCA curriculum is indeed mentioned though--one of the problems with that YMCA program was that its curriculum was not standardized then. Each YMCA pretty much taught its own version of a scuba class.

The idea of teaching a huge program in small pieces from which students can pick and choose according to their needs and interests is pretty much universal in education. For example, colleges do not teach a 20-year program called "college." They generally have certain required courses that give students the basic education they believe is required, and after that students can select the courses that will best prepare them for the kind of life they want to lead. Most people think that is a good idea.

Scuba is taught the same way today. All agencies--all of them--have basic courses that will get divers started, after which they can pick and choose the ones that will benefit them the most. That is almost universally preferred to teaching a massive, expensive course that teaches many, many things a diver may never need to know. For example, I completed over 800 dives before I had my first dive where dealing with tides made any difference at all. I learned what I needed before those dives, not 15 years before those dives. I would have forgotten everything I learned about tides in that period of time.

 

[tursiops]

apologies everyone, forgot to reference the first two quotes, however theses agencies are indeed businesses and have business models, the purpose of a business model is to be profitable. and back to my statement that it is far more profitable to break down the original YMCA training syllabus which could take up to 6 months to complete, and was far more in-depth than the current training programmes currently used.
But there again you were also showing that you researched your answer taking passages out of A History of NAUI rather than knowing it in the first place. This is not about scoring points, but rather about the subject of "bad attitudes about solo diving are still prevalent" the only people on her which constantly go off topic are the people against solo diving, and then seem to spit out there dummies when they don't like what others say. Qualifications and experience aside its a simple discussion, with differing of opinions.

I do hold degrees in business and social law, so do understand that business has a habit of creating laws to ensure their profit margins, right or wrong, but when business infringes my social liberties (may be phrased differently in the US and other countries), by trying to make a ruling that I cannot dive solo unless I have a piece of plastic with a photo and the words solo diver or self reliant diver that's cost X amount of pounds/dollars and then enforcing by telling affiliates that they cannot allow solo diving or they will loose their affiliation, I find this unacceptable

Please note that there are no US laws and few countries that regulate solo diving. Your strawhorse is moot.

 

[Christopher Griffin]

Please note that there are no US laws and few countries that regulate solo diving. Your strawhorse is moot.

I didn't say countries were making the laws I said business were making laws in aide to increase profitability(Diving Subject) and enforcing it though their affiliates.
But don't get me wrong if a dive company or dive site doesn't allow solo diving then I have a choice to dive with a buddy or dive elsewhere, I and many other divers around the world know where we can dive solo, so to me there's no issue. As I have stated in the past if you only want to dive with a buddy that's fine, but please don't tell me that I cannot dive solo, and please stop with the its more dangerous to dive solo when the statics paint different picture, and allow people to chose for themselves.

In recreational terms I choose to dive, with or without a buddy, and am fully responsible for my actions whilst diving, and do not look to off load any responsibility on to anyone else.

 

[tursiops]

I didn't say countries were making the laws I said business were making laws in aide to increase profitability(Diving Subject) and enforcing it though their affiliates.
But don't get me wrong if a dive company or dive site doesn't allow solo diving then I have a choice to dive with a buddy or dive elsewhere, I and many other divers around the world know where we can dive solo, so to me there's no issue. As I have stated in the past if you only want to dive with a buddy that's fine, but please don't tell me that I cannot dive solo, and please stop with the its more dangerous to dive solo when the statics paint different picture, and allow people to chose for themselves.

In recreational terms I choose to dive, with or without a buddy, and am fully responsible for my actions whilst diving, and do not look to off load any responsibility on to anyone else.

I believe this is textbook sociopathy.
By the way, businesses don't make laws.

 

[MichaelMc]

As I have stated in the past if you only want to dive with a buddy that's fine, but please don't tell me that I cannot dive solo, and please stop with the its more dangerous to dive solo when the statics paint different picture, and allow people to chose for themselves.

In recreational terms I choose to dive, with or without a buddy, and am fully responsible for my actions whilst diving, and do not look to off load any responsibility on to anyone else.

Have you had a chance to read much of the other threads on solo diving? Just wondering how much of the board content you've seen yet on this, or how long you've been reading the board.

 

[Colliam7]

The problem with discussing risk with regard to diving is that scuba diving actually appears to be remarkably safe, considering the number of incidents divided by the denominator of diving activity. The problem is, we don't have a comprehensive capture mechanism - we don't reliably capture all incidents in a consolidated database, nor can we possibly capture total dive numbers in a central place.

Because the 'reported' numerator (incidents) is so small, drawing statistically meaningful comparisons of risk - between solo diving and buddy diving, for example - is challenging. Yes, 'common sense' might seem to suggest that the risk of diving alone is higher than the risk of diving with a buddy. But, the available data do not objectively support that, even if it seems intuitively apparent to some. That doesn't mean that the data conclusively demonstrate that diving alone is as safe as buddy diving, either. We simply cannot draw a valid inference.

I suspect that is part of the reason this thread was started. The 'you're gonna die!' attitude is founded on ignorance as much as fact, it is an emotional response, not an objective one. It is frustrating to have mis-information bandied about in such a discussion.

 

[Christopher Griffin]

Hi MichaelMC and Colliam7

Your probably right, and no unfortunately not had the chance to chat on other boards I've been stuck here having to justify why its my choice to dive solo or not, and being side tracked of the main subject when points of view differ. I agree there is an increase in certain risks when solo diving, as there is an increase in certain risks when buddy diving, but you are quite right the "your gonna die if you dive solo" is incorrect, and other factors need to be taken into account, like training and experience. The sport is one of the few that are very safe.
I do not in any way promote solo diving, I simply believe that people should be able to make the choice themselves without being stigmatised or ridiculed.

 

[MichaelMc]

Your probably right, and no unfortunately not had the chance to chat on other boards I've been stuck here having to justify why its my choice to dive solo or not, and being side tracked of the main subject when points of view differ.

It seems you might be new to ScubaBoard, having joined this Sunday, with all your posts in this or the 'thinking back solo' threads.

Many here are instructors, and, as such, have usually learned to be exact in what they say and to reference where they draw their information. The board is more about trying to exchange information and understanding, from known sources or personal experience, than about winning arguments.

Maybe take a chance to read around a bit, this topic will still be here. It is not really that complex, but it does have a bunch of independent parts. Mixing them all together benefits no one.

 

[Christopher Griffin]

as I've said before I don't normally post, I tend to just read a lot of it, as for there being a lot of recreational dive instructors, that's fine but I am a PADI AI and HSE commercial saturation diver with well in excess of 6000 dives, so I've probably had a lot more in depth training and experience than most. however I try not to use my credentials to bolster my point.
there is no right or wrong when it comes to solo diving, its an individual choice