Article: Self Reliance and Tech Diving

[nimoh]

In what way is it selfish to either dive without a buddy, and/or to set clear boundaries at the surface as to what assistance you will or will not provide on the bottom?

If we both have an hour+ deco obligation, our respective dive plans called for us to each carry our own deco gas/safety reserve but no more, and just before beginning the ascent you have a catastrophic failure that costs you your gas... how is it selfish for me to do the math in my head and tell you to follow your plan, rather than compromising my own? If you want to argue that it's irresponsible or morally wrong to set up such a dive plan in the first place (and I suspect you team divers would, given your gas planning approach), so be it. But nobody is having the rules of the dive sprung on them for the first time at the bottom.

Would I do everything I could within the boundaries of my reserves and plan to get you as far through deco and up the line as I could before sending you on your own way? So far as I could safely do so, of course I would. Would I insist you switch back to your own gas and take your chances once I calculated that the risk to my own safety was too great, and fight to protect myself if you were too selfish to follow your own plan? Yes, I would. I hadn't realized that DIR's philosophy included the tenet that two chamber riders/bodies were better than one.

As an aside, your legality comment is as ignorant as it is unnecessary and pointless. Ignorant, in that no U.S. jurisdiction requires a private citizen to put themself at risk to rescue another unless they directly and proximately cause the crisis in which the other finds themselves. One may not untie a trespassing boat from one's dock in a storm -- life and limb trump property rights -- but the gas for one's dive is not an issue of property rights. Unnecessary and pointless, in that there's little chance of any reliable evidence of what happens on a dive reaching the surface and, in any event, the last thing anyone would be thinking about in what is a self-defense situation is 'gee, is this possibly a tort?!'

while I agree that two chamber rides are not better than one. I do believe that two chamber rides are better than one fatality.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

to be clear, it is not my belief system that is threatened, it is the potential mis-use of Chatterton's ideas/system that could threaten many divers --many divers that I don't know.

To be clear, it very much seems your belief system is what allows you the arrogance to believe that public discussion of another diver's approach is a problem because it could mislead those less wise than yourself to harm.

Let's turn the tables: I post that your or TS&M's reasons for diving as part of a team shouldn't be discussed here, because it's dangerous to all those blank slate new divers (tech or rec) who might therefore be led astray from doing what they should be doing: diving solo. You'd say it was a ridiculous concern, and rightly so. Your point is no more cogent.

Divers truly adhering to either school of thought will be well prepared for their dives, while divers paying only lip-service to solo or to buddy diving are both asking to get themselves killed.

 

[drrich2]

Dr. Lecter:

Public discussion in a general scuba forum with a readership including large numbers of rec. divers nearer the 'entry level' can influence those divers. Whether and if so at what point this leads to a moral issue involving setting a good or bad example is harder to call.

I believe that the overall majority philosophy on the forum has been one of relative conservatism; diving within recommended limits, emphasis on the buddy system if not solo trained & equipped for the dive at hand, etc..., and sensitivity to the fact many fairly naive divers are reading the postings. I realize most won't be solo diving the Andrea Dora anytime soon...

Also consider the posts on the forum calling for greater diligence in buddy responsibility and emphasis in the OW course, such as some of what Jim Lapenta posted before.

With that backdrop, people are going to be alarmed at the impact Chatterson's position might have.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

By your logic, they should be alarmed anytime anyone discusses diving the Doria, whether with a buddy or solo.

That's clearly not the case, as something (solo) that's never been objectively shown to be inherently riskier than the other option (buddy) is being subject to special, 'oh, we can't have newbies thinking that's OK' treatment.

Why aren't you agonizing over the potential for any discussion of any tech diving to lead new rec divers into trying stupid ?

 

[danvolker]

To be clear, it very much seems your belief system is what allows you the arrogance to believe that public discussion of another diver's approach is a problem because it could mislead those less wise than yourself to harm.

Each of us obviously has opinions.This is Scubaboard
DIR pushed the agenda of the safety record of the WKPP with DIR diving from the mid 90's to around 2002----( GUE pretty much took over then).
When I pushed DIR in the mid and late 90's, the reason to push it was to give divers a similar safety level, and bigger adventure potentials with this. I did not feel then, and I don't feel now, that I have any reason to worry about my opinions differing from those of other divers....Whether Rec.scuba, or Scubaboard, we love our opinions, we like to push them. Doc, you push at least as hard as I do

Let's turn the tables: I post that your or TS&M's reasons for diving as part of a team shouldn't be discussed here, because it's dangerous to all those blank slate new divers (tech or rec) who might therefore be led astray from doing what they should be doing: diving solo. You'd say it was a ridiculous concern, and rightly so. Your point is no more cogent.

Well you are lawyering now.....the real issue, is that TS&M or I would suggest the blank slate new divers would get trained in a fundies course, which is going to undeniably provide a much safer base for them, whether diving solo or as a team...the skill perfection and optimization of their kit, just takes them to another level far beyond what you can get with a AOW cert. Put one of these new divers through fundies, and put them in a scenario where they need to dive solo, they should be spectacular at the solo diving. But their mindset would likely reject this solo diving in most cases.

Divers truly adhering to either school of thought will be well prepared for their dives, while divers paying only lip-service to solo or to buddy diving are both asking to get themselves killed.

I would agree with this, but don't know of a source for solo diving that would be the solo equivalent of GUE. I would want to see their buoyancy and trim, their slickness in the water--how much drag they create with the larger redundancies they will be forced to use, etc.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Whether Rec.scuba, or Scubaboard, we love our opinions, we like to push them. Doc, you push at least as hard as I do

Sure enough, but I think how we're pushing them here differs.

I've never said that someone's team-based diving approach was maybe not OK to discuss in public because of the risk that others might think that diving with a buddy was OK. If there's a perceived negative to someone's stated approach, whether it be the details of kit or the theory driving the broad strokes (pun not intended) of their dive plan, I may say for what specific reasons I think it's a bad idea/why I do things differently.

But what I see here is different. There's a lot of comments along the lines of 'gee, we can't have someone who obviously knows what they're doing saying they prefer solo tech diving--what will the new people think!?' To which I say: shoot the message, if you must, but stop suggesting that the messenger be gagged for the good of the children.

 

[Chatterton]

Jajajajajajaja

Thank you all for the very nice comments, the unexpected comments, and the somewhat humorous comments.

I guess I should have done a better job of titling the blog? Self reliance to me means taking responsibility for oneself. I should have titled it, Responsibility. Although I engage in solo diving on occasion, it is when the occasion dictates so to me. It is possible for me to have that option, because I am self reliant. The Doria video dive would have been a nightmare with two divers in those small spaces, with all that loose debris, but I am not an advocate of solo diving without cause. However, I am an advocate of divers being responsible for themselves. If I was with a buddy, and I were to have a problem, any problem as has happened in the past, my methodology for dealing with the emergency, is to deal with the emergency, myself. It is simpler to have the solution with me, rather than go get it from someone else.

The way the human mind works is that we observe, we process the data, and then we react. It takes time. If I have an emergency, I have to identify the problem, process the information, and then act to resolve the issue. The emergency may be inconvenient, but not unexpected, because I am prepared.

If I have to identify the problem, process the information, resolve the issue by finding my buddy, relate problem to him/her where he/she then has to identify the problem, process the data, and then react, well I think I have made things more complicated than necessary? I like simple, not complicated. But that is me???

I like team diving. I have been part of several expeditions, multinational expeditions, all over the world, with extremely detailed and involved dive plans. We used buddies, and support divers, and all sorts of things to minimize the inherent risk of deep wreck diving. The divers, without exception, were all very responsible. That is how we got stuff done. We could count on our fellow divers to be self reliant, and responsible. That means follow the plan, and it never meant come over and rush me for a regulator!!

Why would anyone rush another diver for a regulator? Because they are out of all breathing gas? Because they suffered a primary failure with no backup? To me, either one of these is totally unacceptable and unnecessary.

So, I think training should have greater focus on honesty, self assessment, self reliance, and responsibility, with less focus on honing buddy diving dependency skills. You can still keep your buddy. As far as I am concerned, take two, or three??

So, my blog is not about Solo vs. Buddy. It is not about safety. It is not about refusing to work with others. It is not about Tek vs. DIR. The blog I was trying to write is about mindset. It is my personal opinion that as divers we need to man up (or woman up) and take responsibility for:

1. Our own ass.
2. Our own dive.
3. Having the necessary experience for the dive.
4. Knowing the pitfalls.
5. Having all the equipment we might need.
6. When systems fail, having an appropriate backup.
7. Knowing what the hell we are doing.
8. Having the courage to know that when we can't assume all that responsibility, then we should probably stay on the boat, instead of assuming that if/when something goes wrong, the plan is to inflict myself on someone else.

Yes, I am dangerous. My message is dangerous. You are right. I preach, responsibility!! I am an evil genius!!!!!!!!! Jajajajajajajajajjajaja

I am just kidding. I am not a genius.

Cheers

John Chatterton

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Jajajajajajaja

Thank you all for the very nice comments, the unexpected comments, and the somewhat humorous comments.

I guess I should have done a better job of titling the blog? Self reliance to me means taking responsibility for oneself. I should have titled it, Responsibility. Although I engage in solo diving on occasion, it is when the occasion dictates so to me. It is possible for me to have that option, because I am self reliant. The Doria video dive would have been a nightmare with two divers in those small spaces, with all that loose debris, but I am not an advocate of solo diving without cause. However, I am an advocate of divers being responsible for themselves. If I was with a buddy, and I were to have a problem, any problem as has happened in the past, my methodology for dealing with the emergency, is to deal with the emergency, myself. It is simpler to have the solution with me, rather than go get it from someone else.

The way the human mind works is that we observe, we process the data, and then we react. It takes time. If I have an emergency, I have to identify the problem, process the information, and then act to resolve the issue. The emergency may be inconvenient, but not unexpected, because I am prepared.

If I have to identify the problem, process the information, resolve the issue by finding my buddy, relate problem to him/her where he/she then has to identify the problem, process the data, and then react, well I think I have made things more complicated than necessary? I like simple, not complicated. But that is me???

I like team diving. I have been part of several expeditions, multinational expeditions, all over the world, with extremely detailed and involved dive plans. We used buddies, and support divers, and all sorts of things to minimize the inherent risk of deep wreck diving. The divers, without exception, were all very responsible. That is how we got stuff done. We could count on our fellow divers to be self reliant, and responsible. That means follow the plan, and it never meant come over and rush me for a regulator!!

Why would anyone rush another diver for a regulator? Because they are out of all breathing gas? Because they suffered a primary failure with no backup? To me, either one of these is totally unacceptable and unnecessary.

So, I think training should have greater focus on honesty, self assessment, self reliance, and responsibility, with less focus on honing buddy diving dependency skills. You can still keep your buddy. As far as I am concerned, take two, or three??

So, my blog is not about Solo vs. Buddy. It is not about safety. It is not about refusing to work with others. It is not about Tek vs. DIR. The blog I was trying to write is about mindset. It is my personal opinion that as divers we need to man up (or woman up) and take responsibility for:

1. Our own ass.
2. Our own dive.
3. Having the necessary experience for the dive.
4. Knowing the pitfalls.
5. Having all the equipment we might need.
6. When systems fail, having an appropriate backup.
7. Knowing what the hell we are doing.
8. Having the courage to know that when we can't assume all that responsibility, then we should probably stay on the boat, instead of assuming that if/when something goes wrong, the plan is to inflict myself on someone else.

Yes, I am dangerous. My message is dangerous. You are right. I preach, responsibility!! I am an evil genius!!!!!!!!! Jajajajajajajajajjajaja

I am just kidding. I am not a genius.

Cheers

John Chatterton

This latest post is much different from your original comments

I can paraphrase... "don't take my back-up reg... if you do, I will fight you. If you need gas on the bottom, you are sheet out of luck ..... Deal with it..... use your own deco gas if you have to". I assume this is what is meant when you reference the wrong gas, but this could easily cause a diver to go into convulsions and die.

This is a very harsh mindset... but... you seem to contradict yourself in the very next sentence when you say you will help if you can.....I find the comments harsh, difficult to really understand and somewhat contradictory. I'm not sure what a technical dive student would glean from them. I myself have ZERO technical training.

 

[danvolker]

Sure enough, but I think how we're pushing them here differs.

I've never said that someone's team-based diving approach was maybe not OK to discuss in public because of the risk that others might think that diving with a buddy was OK. If there's a perceived negative to someone's stated approach, whether it be the details of kit or the theory driving the broad strokes (pun not intended) of their dive plan, I may say for what specific reasons I think it's a bad idea/why I do things differently.

But what I see here is different. There's a lot of comments along the lines of 'gee, we can't have someone who obviously knows what they're doing saying they prefer solo tech diving--what will the new people think!?' To which I say: shoot the message, if you must, but stop suggesting that the messenger be gagged for the good of the children.

[This reminds me of] a guy named Bill Rennaker....a guy quite infamous in Cave diving circles, for the seminars and articles he put out, directly stating " Every man for himself".
I believe this is dangerous, Rennaker was dangerous, and I would do my best to let the "blank slate" new divers hear that some of the very best divers ( WKPP) consider this "Every man for himself" style of diving to be reprehensible.
When you find someone like this, you don't dive with them, period.

 

[Chatterton]

This latest post is much different from your original comments

I can paraphrase... "don't take my back-up reg... if you do, I will fight you. If you need gas on the bottom, you are sheet out of luck ..... Deal with it..... use your own deco gas if you have to". I assume this is what is meant when you reference the wrong gas, but this could easily cause a diver to go into convulsions and die.

This is a very harsh mindset... but... you seem to contradict yourself in the very next sentence when you say you will help if you can.....I find the comments harsh, difficult to really understand and somewhat contradictory. I'm not sure what a technical dive student would glean from them. I myself have ZERO technical training.

Harsh mindset??? Really? Let me be clear, if you have nothing to breathe, or nothing you feel like breathing at the time, and you jump me for my regulator, I will fight you for it, and I will win. Period. It is totally unacceptable, unnecessary, and dangerous, for any diver to jump another diver for gas, and place both lives in serious danger. What could be more dangerous? Seriously?

As for breathing your own deco gas at an inappropriate depth, because you have to, what do you think will happen??? One breath of instant death?? Jajajajajajajaja Oh, I forgot, you have no tech training? You can probably switch gas, make the change on your computer, and then punch the hell out, but if you are running out of gas in the first place, my point is that you have no business on that dive, with or without a buddy!!

Is this harsh enough for you?