Are the Super Wings too much?

[MechDiver]

LOL, but if he falls, will he make a sound????

Naw. The 500 lb lift bag he has as a DSMB will cushion his fall.

 

[novadiver]

“There is no need for one 100 lb wing for 104/130 tanks, let alone duals” - Maybe IANTD doesn't teach this but the first rule of thumb of tech diving is redundancy. 2 lights, Primary Regs, back up Regs, knife, back up knife, dual bladder air cell, I think you’re starting to get the picture. You guys can make fun of me all you want, I know my diving. I have done many, many deco dives beyond 180'. I have 400+ logged dives, 80% are deep dives beyond 130’. All of them safely. I have done TDI training with John Avery and John Clifton with Scuba Center here in the Twin Cities. Like I said in an earlier post, I can only comment on what works best for me and give my 2 cents to a new diver that ultimately he is going to make his own decision. This is the problem with the tech diving community; there is a ton of arrogance. “I don't know how he got into technical diving not knowing this. Wonder who his TDI instructor was?” For people in this thread to ask how I got into technical diving is a little below the belt and not called for. And in a sense for them to suggest that I am not qualified because I am suggesting to a newer diver that maybe more might be a little better? Or that I don't understand in water or out of water buoyancy. All I know is when you are carrying 150 plus pounds of gear, your BC better be able to handle that kind of load. You load all of your stuff on top of your 55lb wings, your full dual 130's or 95's, your 2 full 40's, your full 13 and your light, all of your regs, reels, lift bags, make sure that you put the lead in the jacket and fill those wings and tell me if they float, because they won't. Put your body in that jacket and it may float but I bet you will have your reg in your mouth. Because you are riding so low in the water. Most of the diving that I do requires a short surface swim, so I like having more lift to get my head further out of the water so I do not need to waste air at the surface. I started with a dive rite transpac with classic wings and as I started to carry more junk, I found that it was harder to stay higher in the water during surface swims. Underwater sure the wings worked fine. But all in all I am glad that I made the switch to a OMS harness with SS BP and bigger wings.

You may know your diving, but your new here. So in the future remember, there is a lot of ekorts divers that love to flame the new members. that's what happens when you dive with a keyboard instead of a reg. Don't let them bring you down.

 

[headhunter]

130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. To me it seems like a bad plan. Dive Rite recommends at minimum Classic wings with 59lb of lift for "heavy" doubles. Like I said a little more lift is always a better plan, especially if you do any diving that have a surface swim involved the more lift on your back will get your head out of the water better for those swims. Also the SS back plate with possibly a tank weight of some kind and ankle weights would most likely reverse the need to carry a weight belt at all. Which is very nice. When it comes right down to it you are going to buy what you think is best. Everyone in the Tech community is going to tell you something different. Case in point here. Best advice I got was buy the best you can afford, but a little more than you might need now when planning for future tech dives... Have fun.

decoeric,

I mean the following in the nicest way possible.

You calculated wrong. I'm sure you know this, but just made a mistake when you quickly did your calculations. You'll see what I mean through my over simplified example using only some of the items that could make up your rig.

The following info about tanks is straight from the PST brochure that I have in front of me.

An pair of E8-130s without hardware and manifold weigh 86 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 21 lbs. full and 2 lbs. empty

So, even though your tanks DO weigh 86 lbs. when you carry them around on dry land, they only need 21 lbs of lift when full to make them float.

I'm not sure about the Transpac II, but a typical SS backplate would weigh roughly 6 lbs. and would be negatively bouyant by roughly 6 lbs. So you'd need roughly 6 lbs. of lift to make the backplate float.

If you used 2 PST LP-45s as stage bottles, they would weigh 38 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 7.4 lbs full and 1 lb empty. So you'd need 7.4 lbs. to make your stage bottles float.

So, only counting the items mentioned above with full tanks you would only need 34.4 lbs of lift to make them float even though the items actually weigh 130 lbs.

Obviously, you would make these calculations with your entire rig, but as you can see, so far you are only up to around a 35 pound wing. This doesn't take into account your exposure suit, your light can or anything else, but I think you see that it's going to take a lot more gear to "need" the 100 lbs of lift you are talking about.

I believe that this is what all the hoopla is about here.

Hope this helps.

Christian

 

[The Fresh Prince]

You may know your diving, but your new here. So in the future remember, there is a lot of ekorts divers that love to flame the new members. that's what happens when you dive with a keyboard instead of a reg. Don't let them bring you down.

Nova, how the heck are you? Long time.... anyway, this was not a flame. Whenever you see something that doesn't jibe, don't you question it?(like 196 times) When DE averred that a 55# lift wing couldn't float " all the gear " he carries, he was called on it. And yes, if he is in technical diving, he should know the lift required for his gear, in water. (which is where we presume he is diving all these deep dives). And if he didn't know this after his deco training qualifying him to 160 ft., then I would have questions of his instructor.

 

[novadiver]

decoeric,

I mean the following in the nicest way possible.

You calculated wrong. I'm sure you know this, but just made a mistake when you quickly did your calculations. You'll see what I mean through my over simplified example using only some of the items that could make up your rig.

The following info about tanks is straight from the PST brochure that I have in front of me.

An pair of E8-130s without hardware and manifold weigh 86 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 21 lbs. full and 2 lbs. empty

So, even though your tanks DO weigh 86 lbs. when you carry them around on dry land, they only need 21 lbs of lift when full to make them float.

I'm not sure about the Transpac II, but a typical SS backplate would weigh roughly 6 lbs. and would be negatively bouyant by roughly 6 lbs. So you'd need roughly 6 lbs. of lift to make the backplate float.

If you used 2 PST LP-45s as stage bottles, they would weigh 38 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 7.4 lbs full and 1 lb empty. So you'd need 7.4 lbs. to make your stage bottles float.

So, only counting the items mentioned above with full tanks you would only need 34.4 lbs of lift to make them float even though the items actually weigh 130 lbs.

Obviously, you would make these calculations with your entire rig, but as you can see, so far you are only up to around a 35 pound wing. This doesn't take into account your exposure suit, your light can or anything else, but I think you see that it's going to take a lot more gear to "need" the 100 lbs of lift you are talking about.

I believe that this is what all the hoopla is about here.

Hope this helps.

Christian

Headhunter, good calcs , but if I'm not mistaken that 34 lbs at 6 ata would require much more lift to become neutral. those wings were designed for heavy doubles at depth. One of the reasons that recreational divers die in deep water is that their bcd does not have enough lift to compensate for the depth that they try to come up from.

 

[novadiver]

Nova, how the heck are you? Long time.... anyway, this was not a flame. Whenever you see something that doesn't jibe, don't you question it?(like 196 times) When DE averred that a 55# lift wing couldn't float " all the gear " he carries, he was called on it. And yes, if he is in technical diving, he should know the lift required for his gear, in water. (which is where we presume he is diving all these deep dives). And if he didn't know this after his deco training qualifying him to 160 ft., then I would have questions of his instructor.

JJsteffen ? I read the posts and I think this guy ment well. He's new hear and it takes time to figure out who the trouble makers are.

I hope you read my post on the correct use of 100lb wings.

P.S Hope all is well with you.( new attitude )

 

[headhunter]

Headhunter, good calcs , but if I'm not mistaken that 34 lbs at 6 ata would require much more lift to become neutral. those wings were designed for heavy doubles at depth. One of the reasons that recreational divers die in deep water is that their bcd does not have enough lift to compensate for the depth that they try to come up from.

I may not be thinking this through properly at the moment, but in my example with those pieces of equipment, I don't think that depth should increase the need for lift.

A tank or a backplate won't have "compressed air spaces" like a wetsuit, so it should not require more lift at depth.

Am I missing something here?

Maybe I've been staring at this computer screen too long today. So, I'm going to go out for a little moutain biking right now to clear the pixels from my brain. I guess I'll be trading the pixels for some dirt. THAT ought to help me think better! :11:

Somebody straighten out my thinking here while I'm out "shakin' up my bones".

Christian

 

[novadiver]

I may not be thinking this through properly at the moment, but in my example with those pieces of equipment, I don't think that depth should increase the need for lift.

A tank or a backplate won't have "compressed air spaces" like a wetsuit, so it should not require more lift at depth.

Am I missing something here?

Maybe I've been staring at this computer screen too long today. So, I'm going to go out for a little moutain biking right now to clear the pixels from my brain. I guess I'll be trading the pixels for some dirt. THAT ought to help me think better! :11:

Somebody straighten out my thinking here while I'm out "shakin' up my bones".

Christian

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often

 

[Dan Gibson]

You need to think displacement. Depth won't make a difference. The weight of water near the surface is the same as at depth when you consider that water is incompressible (for all practical purposes). It takes the same displaced volume to provide the same amount of lift at any depth. It the amount of air needed to fill that volume that changes.

My 104s load to 2700 psi with an aluminum backplate weights 30# in the water. This doesn't change with depth. 100 # bladders are not necessary.

The minimum required lift should be that required to float your rig without you in it.

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often

 

[Dan Gibson]

SS plates will make you so top heavy that you will be fighting your trim. The AL plate is better for 104s.

My AL plate is very sturdy. I would bet the bolt on the bands would break before it would/

Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents.