Are PADI OWD allowed to teach scuba diving during pool demos?

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We could play "if's" all day long.

My point is Dressel did not just fall off the turnip truck. They know what they are doing and how to go about doing it. The OP is not the first person they have trained this way.
 
Because you guys are being total A-holes. Look at their website for the dive master internship program. It clearly states they will take a diver AT ANY LEVEL and turn him into a divemaster for free.

I don't think anyone ever doubted that was the case; several folks have cited the zero-to-hero indentured servitude aspect of the program. I think you're looking at the wrong aspect here.

What would you expect when the only qualifications for the divemaster training program are to be over 18 and alive? The OP's story is totally consistent with the information presented on the website.


I certainly would not expect that they would base the program on a codified - and public-facing - policy of widespread, egregious, and very risky standards violations.

I'm just guessing here, but my suspicion is that the the OP got down there with his money and a dream and has only NOW figured out what he's gotten himself into. Now he's stirring up some dubious story in order to try to get himself out of it.

Based on the very nature of Dressel's DM-Instructor Internship program they have plenty of newly CERTIFIED Divemasters milling about who can run DSDs perfectly within PADI standards. That work is how they "pay" for their DM and IDC internships. There's really no reason for Dressel to have anyone BUT these certified DMs conduct programs that are supposed to be conducted by certified DMs. Not just to avoid standards violations... but because having non-DMs running such programs is inconsistent with their business model.
 


The OP calls himself a DM candidate. He is not; he doesn't even know the ground rules for the program he is in.



Now who is being abusive? LOL
We all agree he should not be doing what he is doing.
The underlying question is WHY is he coming to ScubaBoard to ask about this?
I'm suggesting it is possibly because he is unhappy with what he is being asked to do....he doesn't feel it is a good (and maybe proper) use of his time. He chooses to frame it around what is allowed; fine. Maybe if he can get them in trouble, he can get his money back and get out of the mess he is in.

As someone mentioned he never claimed to be a dive master candidate, only an open water diver in a divemaster internship program.

The underlying question is: Is it allowed under PADI rules for open water divers to teach skills to new divers? The OP's motivation for posting the question to ScubaBoard is completely irrelevant. It is completely plausible for someone with only an open water certification (and manual) not to know who to talk to about this. So he comes here for advice and gets treated poorly by so-called "dive professionals". I would give more credence to your theory IF he was complaining about doing non-diving related tasks such as washing dishes or cleaning the boat.

---------- Post added March 13th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ----------

According to the website, one does not even have to be certified to dive to sign up for this internship. But materials ARE supposed to be included.

PADI has some control over what is done in their name, to the extent that standards violations can result in termination of instructor status, or get a dive shop kicked out of the 5 star program. But if the shop is doing something which is not sold using any PADI umbrella, they can do whatever they want. They would be in interesting liability trouble, were a problem to occur, but as has already been pointed out, this is happening in Mexico, where the liability situation is very different from the US -- and I would guess that a lot if not all of the "pseudo-Discover Scuba" students are from other countries, where filing a lawsuit in Mexico would be a major, expensive PITA.

I personally believe it is inadvisable for staff with no teaching training or experience to be conducting introductions to scuba, and I also think anybody who is even in a pool with someone on their first experience breathing underwater should, at the very least, have a great deal of composure in the water themselves. This is not often the case for simple OW divers with low dive counts.

It does say all materials are included BUT it does not say they would be provided up-front. It could be possible (and most probable) that they give the materials on a piecemeal basis as the diver progresses through the program.

I am neither a lawyer or a "dive professional" but it does seem that being the program is marketed as a PADI Dive Master internship program gives PADI some jurisdiction over how it is run. If the candidate is American he can certainly be sued in the US for negligence committed abroad.

---------- Post added March 13th, 2015 at 12:56 PM ----------

I'm just guessing here, but my suspicion is that the the OP got down there with his money and a dream and has only NOW figured out what he's gotten himself into. Now he's stirring up some dubious story in order to try to get himself out of it.

Based on the very nature of Dressel's DM-Instructor Internship program they have plenty of newly CERTIFIED Divemasters milling about who can run DSDs perfectly within PADI standards. That work is how they "pay" for their DM and IDC internships. There's really no reason for Dressel to have anyone BUT these certified DMs conduct programs that are supposed to be conducted by certified DMs. Not just to avoid standards violations... but because having non-DMs running such programs is inconsistent with their business model.

As Hawkwood said, "We can play "if's" all day long. Unless you have personal experience to the contrary on how Dressel conducts their operations I am inclined to believe the OP. The OP did mention the more senior people were out soliciting people for discovery scuba courses and dive lessons. The more senior people can also be out on the boats, running the dive center, etc.

You and the others can laugh about indentured servitude but I take slavery very seriously. In your experience are zero-to-hero operations up front about the requirements, costs, and living conditions? or do they paint an idyllic picture? What lawyers would call fraud in the inducement. You could be right, maybe he decided that work/living conditions are not worth the $1,000 or so he would save with the free tuition. Especially, if he is getting jerked around on the time table for completion.

However, the bottom line is that the OP came here for advice and was ridiculed by you and others. His motivation for asking the question is completely irrelevant.
 
Thank you to everyone who has commented,

After reading the questions regarding myself and my intentions. I hope to clarify some things:

#1. I am a Open Water Diver (granted I would say I have more experience than the average OWD).
#2. I am working towards my Divemaster. Training and materials are delivered to me on a monthly basis. I do not receive everything up front. Hence why I don't have all the dive master books right now to consult regarding my original question.
#3 I am asking the question as I am primarily worried about what liability I would face if something were to happen in the swimming pool. Dressel maintains that we are "clients" (despite paying us commissions), so if something were to happen I am thinking they could basically dis-own me in order to save their own ass and label me as some rogue "client"teaching scuba lessons in the pool. There was another intern that was working for Dressel that was working on the Mayan tours they offer. 2 weeks ago, she was jailed by Police and deported for working for Dressel without proper work paperwork. Dressel hung her out to dry.

I am not complaining about my living situation or the work we do around the Dive shop. I have a BS degree in Biology and am starting graduate school in the fall. I started this internship to give me something to do in the meantime. However, I don't want to risk my future by continuing to work for a company if I am putting myself at a liable risk of being sued, and then being hung out to dry myself. I have the money to buy the courses I need, I am not desperate for money. I signed up, as it filled up the time I had, I could learn how a dive shop worked, improve my spanish, and become a better Diver. However, after working for them for the time I have, this issue among others (i.e., risk of being jailed for working) is concerning to me, as I don't want to jeopardize my future by being legally responsible for issues Dressel is saying are "standard procedure". I am writing a letter to them asking them to correct these procedures as I find them exploitative/illegal and in the case of this issue in particular (pool demos) the general consensus seems to be they fail to meet the standards of PADI and are endangering customers lives as well as placing interns at unfair risk of legal repercussions. If they fail to correct such issues, or just let me go because of it, so be it. I can afford to get what I need elsewhere.
 
Good luck, ddunlop! Don't let anyone get a hold of your passport! (I intend that last part as a joke in this context, although I know that there do exist slavery situations where someone goes overseas for a job and finds themselves in really dire circumstances, but I assume that doesn't tend to happen to educated, middle-class Americans interning with long-established corporations.)

I'm curious (and maybe this is excessive thread drift), how these programs are structured legally to prevent people from just walking away? There's an ominous, all-caps sentence on the Dressel page "ALL DIVEMASTER INTERNSHIPS ARE EXACT PERIODS AND CANNOT BE REDUCED, for example by partial payment." I guess that means that if you want out, you owe them whatever their official rate is for the entire zero-to-hero instructional sequence (and maybe those "free" morning dives, too? equipment rental? meals? lodging?). How much does it cost to escape? And what happens if someone gets injured or has an accident?
 
It is my understanding that a DSD "student" has to be taught by an OWI in the confined water portion of the course. Once the DSD "student" has been "cleared" by said instructor a DM may lead that "student" on the open water portion of the course.

Mexican dive ops often play fast and lose with very liberal interpretations of PADI rules. I have seen DSD divers on a scheduled OW dive with 8 certified divers and one DM leading the entire group. It seemed to me that the poor DM was a bit overloaded looking after 10 people given two of them really needed his full attention.

My advise to the OP would be to politely RUN not walk to the nearest exit. You thought there was a problem and now there is a permanent record of your concern as of the time you started this thread. Should something happen, god forbid, you will have no defense.
 
I am not complaining about my living situation or the work we do around the Dive shop. I have a BS degree in Biology and am starting graduate school in the fall. I started this internship to give me something to do in the meantime. However, I don't want to risk my future by continuing to work for a company if I am putting myself at a liable risk of being sued, and then being hung out to dry myself. I have the money to buy the courses I need, I am not desperate for money. .

I'm in Cozumel right now..PM me if you want to get into a real DM program..Its not free, but you wont be working for slave labor and breaking laws....you will be learning and diving with other DM candidates like you are supposed to do. you will also get free accommodations...and not in a slum..its in a very nice 4 bedroom condo
 
I'm curious (and maybe this is excessive thread drift), how these programs are structured legally to prevent people from just walking away? There's an ominous, all-caps sentence on the Dressel page "ALL DIVEMASTER INTERNSHIPS ARE EXACT PERIODS AND CANNOT BE REDUCED, for example by partial payment." I guess that means that if you want out, you owe them whatever their official rate is for the entire zero-to-hero instructional sequence (and maybe those "free" morning dives, too? equipment rental? meals? lodging?). How much does it cost to escape? And what happens if someone gets injured or has an accident?

I am curious as why they need to recruit foreigners to work at their dive center. Certainly there must be enough local residents with language skills to hire to staff the center. Especially if the applicant doesn't need any previous diving experience.
 
It is my understanding that a DSD "student" has to be taught by an OWI in the confined water portion of the course. Once the DSD "student" has been "cleared" by said instructor a DM may lead that "student" on the open water portion of the course.

I believe it is the opposite. A divemaster with the DSD leader rating can teach the confined water portion of the DSD course. If said person wants to do an open water portion, it must be led by someone that is at least at an instructor rating.
 
It could well have changed since '05 but on Page 84, paragraph 4 says otherwise.

Conducting subsequent dives (open water option) for Discover Scuba Diving participants, at a ratio of 2:1, after the participants have satisfactorily completed the first dive under the direct supervision of a PADI Instructor.


PADI Divemaster Manual, 1999-2005, Chapter Three, Assisting with Student Drivers in Training. PADI Certified Assistant Responsibilities
 

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