Are most flutter kickers negatively buoyant?

[Teamcasa]

At some point all divers are negatively buoyant, many find and maintain neutral buoyancy, then all (that survive) end up positive. Kicking types or styles only provide a method of propulsion. Sometimes, particularly with newer divers, that propulsion simply overcomes a divers buoyancy.

 

[Charlie99]

One can be neutral, negative, or positively buoyant while using either the flutter kick or the frog kick.

If one is other than neutrally buoyant, the natural tendency is to compensate by angling your feet, and therefore the thrust, either up or down.

With a frog kick you have a passive glide phase where any significant negative buoyancy shows up. This means that someone frog kicking is more likely to notice if he is negatively buoyant. OTOH, someone continuously flutter kicking doesn't get that feedback and it is a lot easier for him to be unaware that he is negatively buoyant.

The solution is very, very simple. Stop flutter kicking for a moment and see what happens. Unfortunately, many new divers don't do this and go through their entire dive finning away madly head up/feet down to compensate for being negatively buoyant.

It's not the type of kick that's the problem. It not knowing how to add the correct amount of air to one's BCD.

Halemano and Fisherdvm, you are both like blind men feeling an elephant, but only feeling just one isolated part. It's time to declare truce in your back and forth battle of the polls.

 

[John_B]

I do see a lot of divers who are negative and use the force of their fins to counter the negative buoyancy. Their trim is angled and if they stop finning, they sink. They could be using a frog, scissor, dolphin or flutter. Negative is negative, regardless of the kick.

Finning should be used for propulsion, rather than maintaining depth.

'Zactly!

 

[scubadobadoo]

I don't think it matters as others have said BUT I have noticed that flutter kickers tend to be the folks mucking up the viz with their split fins.

 

[Catt99]

I agree with the sentiments that kick type doesn't affect buoyancy.

However, generally speaking, most divers are taught to flutter kick, and most divers are taught to dive negatively buoyant.

Since it isn't until later (if ever) that divers pick up different kicks and fine-tune buoyancy, and since many divers rarely (if ever) dive after BOW certification, I'd suggest that it's statistically possible that most flutter kickers are negatively buoyant.

I don't disagree with anything Blackwood says - all entirely accurate IMHO. But at the same time, one might say that "most divers who wear exposure protection are negatively buoyant." Or, "most divers who wear fins are negatively buoyant." And I'd think that it's statistically probable (ands certainly possible) that those statements would be true as well.

But, if we are to take the statement at issue as adding any argument or insight at all, instead of simply being technically accurate, then we need to find causation between 'flutter kick' and 'negatively buoyant,' otherwise the statement at issue might as well be "most divers are taught to dive, and do dive, overweighted."

BTW, propos to 24940 for great responses -- and also props to the others who have made the discussion more worthwhile than I think the initial disagreement / post / poll justified.

 

[Nemrod]

Maybe we should explore scissor kicks, combined flutter frogs and dolphin kicks as well? Howabout the side scissor with alternating frog and flutter? What if I swim upside down as I am known to do while doing the flutter kick, do I go from being negative to positive? N

 

[Blackwood]

But, if we are to take the statement at issue as adding any argument or insight at all, instead of simply being technically accurate, then we need to find causation between 'flutter kick' and 'negatively buoyant,' otherwise the statement at issue might as well be "most divers are taught to dive, and do dive, overweighted."

Exactly my point, since there wasn't a "maybe, but so what?" option

In and of themselves, no cause/effect relationship exists between a flutter kick and negative buoyancy (note that any kick which has a thrust component other than horizontal will force the diver to adjust buoyancy off neutral to maintain depth).

Rather, they are IMO independent consequences of how most people are taught to dive.

That said, Charlie's post in either this or one of the other 13 related polls currently active is absolutely valid: since there is no glide portion, flutter kickers who never stop moving won't get feedback relating to - and thus may never improve - their buoyancy.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

In my short experience, I believe that I have observed most flutter kickers to be negative, and furthermore I have observed most of them to be heads well up and fins well down. I agree that there is no mechanical reason why flutter kickers *must* be negatively buoyant, however I also believe that if we observe a random selection of divers, this is what we will see.

Now that being said, let's forget about the mechanics and examine the 'logic' of the situation. if we observe 1,000 randomly selected divers, what will we see? flutter kick, check. Negative, check. Heads up, fins down, check. Rental gear, check. Fewer than 50 dives, check. OW cert. only, check.

Spot a pattern here? I suggest flutter kick *is* correlated with negative buoyancy, but there is no causal link between them. Instead, there is one strong causal link between inexperience and negative buoyancy, and another strong causal link between inexperience and flutter kick.

There's an easy way to test my theory. Simply restrict an observation to divers likely to have more experience. For example, let's only observe divers who own their own gear. Or divers with doubles. Or divers on dives below 120'. Or divers with more than 100 logged dives.

Perhaps we will observe that the correlation between type of kick and buoyancy is weaker in a more experienced group. I'm pretty sure that if we only observe divers with doubles, a stage bottle, redundant dive computers, and dry suits we will find no correlation at all

 

[T23]

Hmmm.... "Are most flutter kickers negatively buoyant?"

I find the "most" part of the question interesting. Short of having some kind of study, the word "most" really gets into the realm of personal opinion. I'd be more comfortable if the question asked "Are some flutter kickers negatively buoyant"? I really do think it would be pretty dog gone difficult to ever substantiate the word "most" in the poll question.

I think we could also ask a similar question "Are some flutter kickers properly balanced?" In addition to trying to compensate for not having achieved proper neutral buoyancy there are some divers out there who are not properly weight balanced which also results in extra or excessive finning to compensate. How are we to differentiate between someone who appears to be exhibiting signs of excess finning to determine if the cause is neutral buoyancy, weight balance, or even possibly something else?

Not making this any easier we probably have another certain percentage of divers who are both improperly balanced and not neutrally buoyant at the same time.

I'm also not sure I agree with the statement: "divers who use one kick exclusively are less likely to fine-tune things like buoyancy". On one hand I don't think I have ever seen a diver who only used one kick "exclusively". Granted there are lots of divers, myself included, who prefer one style of kick over others and may use that kick the vast majority of the time. But majority is not exclusively. I suspect that the choice of kick made by each diver is based upon many factors including what they have been taught, what they find comfortable, what they find less fatiguing, and what gives them the speed and control they need for the given circumstances, etc., etc. The trouble with using absolute terms like "exclusively" is that such words tend to describe a very, very small segment of any given population.

Not making this any easier for a lot of infrequent vacation divers is the usual, typical rush to get to a dive site, get in the water, and get the dive going. I have never, ever seen a dive boat operator take the time to allow divers to do a proper weight check before a dive, not even when they know it is a divers first dive with them after a fair stretch of not having done any diving. They simply ask you how much weight you want and assume you know the correct answer. Yet since the last dive which may have been 3 mo, 6 mo, even a year for some divers what has changed? Did they gain/loose weight? Did they buy any new equipment? Is their physical conditioning better or worse? I think a lot of boat divers feel pressured to cough up a weight answer for the divemaster who is handing out weights. The answer given may be the last amount the diver remembers using or maybe they add on a bit so they won't be embarrassed by being unable to descend and hold up the rest of the group. How many times have we heard a divemaster tell a diver who hesitates... "just go with whatever you used last time I'll have some extra weight with me and hand it to you if you feel you need it?"

I've long suspected that there are a fair number of improperly weighted divers out there. I know I have found myself both under and overweighted at various times. I also suspect that weighting problems are not likely to change any time soon and most likely will not change until dive operators start taking the safety of proper weighting more seriously and provide an opportunity for weight checks prior to diving.

 

[Blackwood]

I'm also not sure I agree with the statement: "divers who use one kick exclusively are less likely to fine-tune things like buoyancy". On one hand I don't think I have ever seen a diver who only used one kick "exclusively". Granted there are lots of divers, myself included, who prefer one style of kick over others and may use that kick the vast majority of the time. But majority is not exclusively. I suspect that the choice of kick made by each diver is based upon many factors including what they have been taught, what they find comfortable, what they find less fatiguing, and what gives them the speed and control they need for the given circumstances, etc., etc. The trouble with using absolute terms like "exclusively" is that such words tend to describe a very, very small segment of any given population.

I agree 100% with the bolded prose. My intent was to suggest that divers who exclusively use one kick have only learned one kick, and that there is a relationship between people who've only learned one kick and people who don't desire to improve their diving.

Perhaps it could be better stated: 'divers who've only ever used one kick are less likely to fine-tune things like buoyancy,' as that sentence can only be used to describe people who've only learned one kick (and thus haven't bothered to learn another).



Of course, I'm speaking in hypothetical generalities. Like you, I have downselected to one style the overwhelming majority of the time.