AOW class shows that Scubaboard standards exceed those in the real world

[uncfnp]

I've seen a range of dive buddy configurations like you described. I simply mistook the designation of "solo diver" under the avatar to mean a certified solo diver or one who technically dives solo (i.e., no one else in the water or no buddy at all). Which brings me back to my original question of solo diving with a total of 50 dives - in this case, I'm guessing this describes the mindset of a diver as being responsible for herself. From my perspective, this designation or qualifier seems unnecessary in that it is part of the definition of a diver (as compared to one who dives).

Edited to add: Net Doc just explained the difference. Thanks!

Just like AOW a solo certification is only as good as the diver and has the same usefullness. It can confirm existing skills or develop new ones and it may or may not be needed to actually do the dives with any given dive op.

 

[2airishuman]

I went through the steps NetDoc identified to change my tag line back to the fish.

There are no dive charters in Minnesota except for a few that serve Lake Superior. Most of my diving is local lakes and rivers, usually from shore, occasionally from my boat or a friend's boat. Friday, when I was filling out forms for the AOW class, was the first time anyone in Minnesota wanted to see my c-card. For one reason or another no one asks for a C-card when I get air fills. Maybe it's my good looks, or the fact that it's steel 120s with DIN valves that I'm getting filled.

 

[uncfnp]

I have found drift diving off West Palm Beach area at 90+ feet or hunting for lobsters and fish at 80+ feet in NJ - you are essentially solo diving. In NJ I use a wreck reel due to low viz and being by yourself - you are in the same body of water with others but I am hardly ever close enough to assist or be assisted by others if the need arises.

It was lobster diving in WPB that finally pushed Eric and I to gear up solo and take the course.

 

[The Chairman]

Did they point out that the sheet bend and the bowline are really the same knot, the only difference being which ends or standing lines you grab to pull it tight?

Yeah, that's not a good way to teach either.

 

[tursiops]

Yeah, that's not a good way to teach either.

LOL. Depends on whether you are a fan of topological elegance.

 

[boulderjohn]

I was told by @boulderjohn the AOW requirement for charters is a myth. Perhaps he can elaborate more as I've never charted a boat.

When did I say that?

I know many instances in which AOW is required for diving, and I have said so many times on ScubaBoard. I have never thought otherwise.

Perhaps you mean, accurately, that AOW is NOT an agency requirement to go to a certain depth. That is correct. A scuba agency has no authority to make the rules that govern your dives. That does not mean others do not have that authority. A local government entity has that authority. A dive operator has that authority. A dive operator may tell you that they require AOW for a certain dive because of agency "rules," but it is really their decision to enforce what is in truth only a recommendation. The fact that an agency cannot enforce an AOW requirement does not mean that an AOW requirement does not exist.

When I was on a liveaboard on the Great Barrier Reef a couple of years ago, the divemaster made two different statements on two different days telling us rules that limited our diving. He said those rules were imposed upon them by PADI. Not wanting to make a scene, I challenged him on it privately, and he admitted that, no, they were not PADI rules--they were company policy. He had obviously been ordered to tell people that they had to obey those nonexistent PADI rules so that the people who did not like it would be mad at somebody else and not them.

 

[CuzzA]

@boulderjohn Please don't take this as I'm calling you out or anything like that. It was in the thread regarding the OW diver who died recently while diving in the cave zone of a Mexican Cenote.

I was making a point based on common hearsay from ScubaBoard that many of the South Florida operators require AOW to dive the recreational depth (130' and up) wrecks and therefore Cenote divers should be cavern trained. Here was our exchange.

@boulderjohn About the training for divers and guides... I think PADI's course outline spells out well what should be the standard for cavern dives including Mexican cenotes. Personally I think these guides should at a minimum be cavern instructors and the vacationing divers should have cavern training/certification before being allowed to enter them. From what I gather, I believe this course really starts hammering the point about diving conservatively and driving home the point why no one should enter a cave without first being trained. You would know better than me as I don't have cavern/cave training. But from what little knowledge I have, logic tells me from the blueprint/training standards that are already in place this is how it should be done.

If we're looking for anything to learn from this incident regarding Mexican cenote diving I think it's pretty clear Mexico's professional dive community has a problem with the almighty dollar and violating standards (already mentioned before). The solution would be to require/offer cavern certifications for those visiting that don't have them. I'm sure it would piss a bunch of people off, but tough. I'm confident it will have very little effect on the guides bottom line and in fact may increase it with the extra course fees. People want to dive these location. They will pay for the training. Ironically the Mexican guides can take a page out of Trumps playbook... "You're gonna pay for the training." (Sorry, I couldn't resist. )

No professional charter/guide will take us to dive most of the wrecks in South Florida without AOW. Why not treat these cenotes with the same level of caution they truly demand? I know some argue it's an insurance thing or it's silly because AOW is not all that advanced, but I think it shows not only the insurance companies, but also the charters that people with AOW have a little more experience and commitment to diving and likely are better/safer divers.

http://blue-immersion.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/PADI-Cavern-Course-Standards-Overview.pdf

You're kidding me, right?

I am sitting in Pompano Beach in South Florida right now. I have dived the local recreational level wrecks during my annual visits for 16 years now. During those years I have used 5 different operators. Not one of them requires AOW for the wrecks at recreational depths. I have seen cases in which some of the divers were entering the wrecks on their first dives after certification. Last year the DM I encountered on many of the dives would say something along these lines in her briefing: "You can penetrate within the daylight area, as long as you can clearly see your way out at all times. Don't go any farther than that." She is no longer around, and I haven't heard anything like that in the two months I have been here this year.

The web site descriptions of the wrecks on some operator web sites SUGGEST AOW, but they do not require it. Diving the deeper wrecks requires technical certification. If you go to the Spiegel Grove in Key Largo, many of the operators will require AOW. For most of the wrecks, though, nothing beyond OW is required.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is what you said: "No professional charter/guide will take us to dive most of the wrecks in South Florida without AOW."

I was responding specifically to that statement, and I stand by it. There is diving outside of South Florida, believe it or not, and many of them have restrictions. There are a FEW south Florida wrecks where SOME operators limit divers to AOW--like the Spiegel Grove in Key Largo. However, most people differentiate between the Keys and South Florida. You said, "No professional charter/guide will take us to dive most of the wrecks in South Florida without AOW." So, I would like you to identify ANY such operator that will not take you to MOST of the wrecks in South Florida without an AOW. I don't know of any myself, so I would be interested in getting the name.

Here is part of the web site for a typical South Florida dive operator. I picked the page that describes the reefs and the wrecks they visit. Those descriptions include recommended (or required) dive ability, and if you read through them, you will see that MOST of them say open water, some of them say Advanced Open Water or Equivalent Experience (which might be 5 dives), and a few require technical certification because they are beyond recreational depths. I don't see ANY that say that AOW is required. Please show me any that I missed.
Dive Sites - South Florida Diving Headquarters

Finally, this thread seems to be about diving in general, not South Florida. There are many places where people dive outside of South Florida. Those places can have different policies. Check here to see that in Southern California, requiring the AOW is common:

 

[CuzzA]

Right, I was trying to reinforce my point about requiring cavern training. I admit I could have worded that sentence better, but you hammered the AOW part.

I followed up with this response and that was it. You did not rebuke that.

Thank you for clarifying. I haven't made it over to South Florida. The AOW/Charter topic is just one that is constantly brought up here on SB so given that, I formed the assumption that was the case. I had no idea all these folks on here were making it up.

For the record, being a Floridian I differentiate S. Florida from the Keys and yes I'm aware diving takes place outside of Florida. Although the OP does travel to Florida for diving and I believe he mentioned it in this thread.

But whatever, I'm learning it's pretty loose when it comes to what is "required" or "standards". Non EANx divers getting nitrox fills, etc.