Anyone use a DSS Steel Plate with Oxycheq wing?

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

Who are you to determine why someone would need a wing with any particular buoyancy?

Dwain,

Where exactly do you see me "determining" for the OP how much wing he needs?

I simply inquired.

I'm a wing designer and manufacturer who sizes wings for people every day. A 45 lbs singles wing is much larger than most people need in the local conditions.

There is considerable misunderstanding about what is required in BC lift, and sadly many divers are sold gear that is oversized for their needs.

I think you would agree that all things being equal, the smallest safe wing will deliver the best performance.

Tobin

 

[DwainT]

Dwain,

Where exactly do you see me "determining" for the OP how much wing he needs?

I simply inquired.

I'm a wing designer and manufacturer who sizes wings for people every day. A 45 lbs singles wing is much larger than most people need in the local conditions.

There is considerable misunderstanding about what is required in BC lift, and sadly many divers are sold gear that is oversized for their needs.

I think you would agree that all things being equal, the smallest safe wing will deliver the best performance.

Tobin

Tobin,

Instead of answering his question, you asked a question.. the question sounds more like an innuendo of why are you diving "that" instead of diving one of your wings. Your question was suggestive and sly... You already know if it will work or not. So why not just answer the question?

As to the requirements of buoyancy characteristics when it comes to lift and being streamline did it ever occur to you that not everyone wants to dive a wing that only just gives them enough lift. Some purchase wings that are slightly larger than needed with the ideas, aspirations, or the need to be able to carry additional gear when diving, ie. stage bottles, camera equipment, Steel tanks and equipment. Not only that, the guy could be tall and muscular... every body type, every diver has or may require different lift according to there own diving habits...

Wouldn't you agree?

Dwain

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

Instead of answering his question, you asked a question.. the question sounds more like an innuendo of why are you diving "that" instead of diving one of your wings. Your question was suggestive and sly... You already know if it will work or not. So why not just answer the question.

I don't know if it will "work" or not. Will it work to the satisfaction of the diver? Without our built in elastomeric cradle, and with a wing that has metal grommets, will the diver be able to secure his tank adequately? Maybe, maybe not.

As to the requirements of buoyancy characteristics when it comes to lift and being streamline did it ever occur to you that not everyone wants to dive a wing that only just gives them enough lift. Some purchase wings that are slightly larger than needed with the ideas, aspirations, or the need to be able to carry additional gear when diving, ie. stage bottles, camera equipment, Steel tanks and equipment. Not only that, the guy could be tall and muscular... every body type, every diver has or may require different lift according to there own diving habits...

Wouldn't you agree?

I do agree that every diver should look carefully at their own requirements. I do not agree that a diver should attempt to compensate for being grossly over weighted by using an over sized wing.

BC's or Buoyancy compensators need to compensate for two factors, the change in the weight of the divers gas supply, and the change, or potential change in the buoyancy of their exposure suit.

A divers own "personal" buoyancy may impact how much or how little additional ballast they require, but it does not impact the size of the required wing.

A lean diver may need less lead than a less lean diver, but the diver's body does not compress as they descend.

Stages should not impact required weighting, or wing size, as they can be ditched.
If you disagree perhaps you should follow this link. http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/how_much_lead.html

"Stages and decobottles

When doing your weighting test you should not have any stages or decobottles on you. Because they are detachable they are not part of your weighting system.

You should also use bottles that will be slightly negative when full and slightly positive when empty. That means aluminum tanks are the DIR choice in most cases.

If you have a problem and are too heavy you can give some of your negative bottles to you buddy. If you are too positive you can dump them because if they are that positive they are also empty. They will end up on the surface - get them another day."


Tobin

 

[fireflock]

Oxycheq could use a PR guy. Seriously. As a potential customer I think you make some interesting products, but I admit to being turned off by your confrontational style. It's not just this thread, but a pattern over time. Maybe it's just me......

Rich

 

[DwainT]

Stages should not impact required weighting, or wing size, as they can be ditched.
If you disagree perhaps you should follow this link. http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/how_much_lead.html

"Stages and decobottles

When doing your weighting test you should not have any stages or decobottles on you. Because they are detachable they are not part of your weighting system.

You should also use bottles that will be slightly negative when full and slightly positive when empty. That means aluminum tanks are the DIR choice in most cases.

If you have a problem and are too heavy you can give some of your negative bottles to you buddy. If you are too positive you can dump them because if they are that positive they are also empty. They will end up on the surface - get them another day."

Tobin,

So your saying that a diver should not take into consideration stage bottles when diving... since they can be ditched. So I guess I and many others have been diving for many years with to much lift. I do not think that a diver should consider ditching tanks except in emergecy situation.... it called planning. I plan to bring my tanks back on every dive. Not be over weighted with to small of a wing.

Stage bottles do effect buoyancy... and the more stages the more it effects.

Tobin.... Why don't you do this if you think that stage bottle to not effect buoyancy.... with your back gas use a wing that provides just enough lift to keep your head out of the water (chin level). Then add a single stage, then a second, an O2 Bottle and then maybe a third stage. Then go for a dive... 15 minutes into the dive abort.... then try to stay on the surface with your head out of the water. Now is there any real reason to ditch if there was proper bouyancy?

BTW: You should reread what was on the link... not every one breaths there tanks dry or almost dry (this causes regulators to be rebuilt prematurely from water intrusion due to pressure differential when a tank has been breathed down to empty then there is the possiblity of water in the tank)... the information relies on the tank being empty or almost empty to provide buoyancy at the end of the dive and complete reliance on your back gas as your reserve. Not everyone dives using there stages as the primary tanks and leaving the back gas as the reserve. It's not the only way to dive.

Dwain

 

[cummings66]

Dwain,

You seem to have an opinion, tell me why my technical instructor during valve drills wants me to turn off the valve and breathe it down? To be honest up until now I was told what you were told, but every technical intructor I've found to date says that does not cause damage nor water intrusion.

I'm worried about my one first which is a sherwood with a bleed, the Apex I'm not so worried about. Do you have any personal first hand experience with breathing down a regulator causing the first stage to flood as well as the tank? Just curious because so far I've only heard that from dive shops and never divers.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

So your saying that a diver should not take into consideration stage bottles when diving... since they can be ditched. So I guess I and many others have been diving for many years with to much lift. I do not think that a diver should consider ditching tanks except in emergecy situation.... it called planning. I plan to bring my tanks back on every dive. Not be over weighted with to small of a wing.

When have I suggested that a diver ditch his stage bottle except in an emergency?

Stage bottles do effect buoyancy... and the more stages the more it effects.

I never said that stages won't effect your buoyancy, what I said was stages should not be considered part of the divers weighting, and does not impact wing sizing.

Tobin.... Why don't you do this if you think that stage bottle to not effect buoyancy.... with your back gas use a wing that provides just enough lift to keep your head out of the water (chin level).

When have I suggested that a diver should select a wing that is only capable of keeping his chin out of the water with full back gas?

Let me run an example, using doubles and a deco bottle.

Our diver will be using the following gear:

Double E8-130, SS back plate and Harness, Dry suit with 22 lbs of initial Buoyancy,
Al 80 Stage or deco bottle. Assumes air or Nitrox for Back gas.

Weight of empty tanks = ~-2 lbs
Weight of back gas = ~-21 lbs
SS Back plate and harness = ~-6 lbs
Tank Bands and center section of Manifold = ~-5
Dual Regs = ~-5
Can Light = ~-2

Total negative buoyancy of rig with full Backgas = ~-41 lbs, or ~-20 with empty bottles.

Drysuit and undies, on the diver with minimum gas in the suit requires 22 lbs to get neutral at the surface. If this suit suffers a total failure, i.e. unable to trap gas, it could loose no more than 22 lbs of buoyancy.

Our diver needs to start this dive negative by the weight of his back gas, or -21 lbs. This will allow him to breath his back gas all the way down if he should need to in an emergency.

He needs a total of 43 lbs of ballast, 22 lbs to get his suit neutral, and 21 more so he is negative by the weight of his gas.

To stay at the surface with full backgas he will need to use 21 lbs of wing capacity, and he needs at a minimum another 22 lbs of wing capacity to offset the effects of a drysuit failure. That means he needs at a minimum 43 lbs of wing lift.

43 lbs of lift will also float his rig at the surface with full backgas 43 (max lift) > 41 (max rig negative buoyancy)

Now lets consider the effects of adding a deco bottle. Lets assume our diver actually found a 43 lbs lift wing and is happily floating at the surface using 21 of the 43 lbs of lift available to him. How much additional wing capacity does he have available? 43-21=22lbs. What is the buoyancy of a full rigged AL80? About -4 lbs, 2 lbs for the full 80 and about 2 lbs for the reg.

If our diver has another 22 lbs of capacity, and needs only to use 4 of it for a full 80 why would he need a larger wing? Even 2 or 3 al 80's won't exceed the lift available to him. If he aborts his dive 15 minutes in he's still fine with all his tanks full.

This of course on an example, in practice the diver will seldom find a wing with the exact minimum lift he needs, and will select the next size up, in the DSS line he's likely use a 49 lbs wing.

What emergency would force or diver to drop bottles? Drysuit failure, or wing failure.
If the diver's Drysuit fails and he looses 22 lbs of buoyancy he will need to drop the bottles. If his wing fails he will likely need to drop the bottles

Then add a single stage, then a second, an O2 Bottle and then maybe a third stage. Then go for a dive... 15 minutes into the dive abort.... then try to stay on the surface with your head out of the water. Now is there any real reason to ditch if there was proper bouyancy?

While your premise is entirely wrong, I'll also point out that the OP in this thread is diving with a single tank. How many stage and or deco bottles do you think he will be carrying?

Lets take a look at a typical single tank diver here in So Cal. We know the OP in this thread is at least tall, as he is considering a DSS Long Pattern Plate.

I'll assume or diver is using:

SS Long Pattern Plate
E8-130
Can Light
7mm full suit, initial buoyancy of 25 lbs (big guy, big suit)


His rig will have a maximum negative buoyancy of about -23 lbs with a full tank, SS Long Pattern Plate an harness is about -8, full bottle is about -11, Reg-2, can light -2.
His rig will be -~13 with an empty tank. He will need about 25 (suit buoyancy) - 13 (rig with empty tank) = 12 lbs on a weight belt

I have assumed his suit to be 25 lbs positive at the surface. If his suit is 25 positive at the surface it cannot loose more than 25 lbs of buoyancy as he descends.

I will assume that our diver will start the dive negative by about 5 lbs. That means he is Eyelevel at the surface with a full tank and only 5 lbs worth of gas in his wing. He needs enough additional capacity to compensate for a fully compressed suit, or 25 lbs.

If he's used 5 lbs of lift to stay at the surface, and needs 25 more then the minimum wing would be 5 + 25 or 30 lbs. A 30 lbs wing will easily float his rig with a full bottle 30 > 23.

How will our diver hold his shallow stop if he breathes down 8-9 lbs of gas and only started 5 lbs negative? Simple his 25 lbs positive wetsuit has lost substantial buoyancy at 15 ft. With thick neo suits and smaller tanks our diver maybe able to start the dive neutral at the surface.

Again if our diver needs only to use 5 lbs of lift from a 30 lbs lift wing why would the addition of a ditchable stage bottle require a larger wing?

If our diver is starting the dive negative by 5 lbs with a full tank, he has 25 lbs of wing lift available for "comfort" at the surface. That's a long way from "barely able to keep his chin out of the water"

What circumstances would require a 45 lbs wing for singles? Our subject diver would need to have an exposure suit that was 40 lbs buoyant. I don't know of any 40 lbs positive exposure suits being using in SoCal.

BTW: You should reread what was on the link... not every one breaths there tanks dry or almost dry (this causes regulators to be rebuilt prematurely from water intrusion due to pressure differential when a tank has been breathed down to empty then there is the possiblity of water in the tank)... the information relies on the tank being empty or almost empty to provide buoyancy at the end of the dive and complete reliance on your back gas as your reserve.

No it does not. An AL 80, or AL 40 will become positive well before it's empty, or the reg is in any danger of water intrusion. Where have I suggested that the diver rely on empty bottles for buoyancy?

Tobin

 

[DwainT]

Dwain,

You seem to have an opinion, tell me why my technical instructor during valve drills wants me to turn off the valve and breathe it down? To be honest up until now I was told what you were told, but every technical intructor I've found to date says that does not cause damage nor water intrusion.

I'm worried about my one first which is a sherwood with a bleed, the Apex I'm not so worried about. Do you have any personal first hand experience with breathing down a regulator causing the first stage to flood as well as the tank? Just curious because so far I've only heard that from dive shops and never divers.

Yes, I have had experience with this... not so much getting into the tank.. But into the 1st Stage... as we use the regulator... Depending on conditions, how we store then, how often we use or don’t use…Etc.. The seats and O-rings wear out... I'm not worried so much about a fresh rebuild but I've open my first stage to rebuild and found corrosion that did not need to be there (from water and salt)... I changed my diving habits to include more air in my stage at the end of the dive.. Subsequently I have now had normal oxidation from gas mixtures. The next few rebuilds did not have any signs of water intrusion. This can be more of an issue when diving in salt water… Salt crystals are very abrasive not to mention increases the oxidation rate of the brass inside the regulator.

Not sure why the instructors have you breath down the reg other than to show you that the valve is actually closed and give you the feeling of an OOA situation during the drill in a controled training environment . Hince the name "drill".

I currently own Apeks and Oxycheq Regulators... I've owned Dacor, Scuba Pro, Sherwood and other reg through the years... Although I do not recommend it for everyone depending on your diving habits... I do not rebuild a regulator till it needs it. I found out that I was rebuilding my regulators with a longer interval when keeping more gas in my stages and not breathing them down and not over filling my tanks.. if I need more air.. I take a stage. Over filling tank places more stress on the high pressure seat causing premature wear… so between these two things I have increased my rebuild from two to three years to 4 to five years…. And none of my regulators sit for very long. Hope this answers your question. :14:

Best Regards

Dwain

 

[bridgediver]

Not sure why the instructors have you breath down the reg other than to show you that the valve is actually closed and give you the feeling of an OOA situation during the drill in a controled training environment . Hince the name "drill".

Every tech instructor I've ever heard of teaches valve drills in this way -- unless they do things really different in florida. I do this with my rig 100's of times before I even think about opening up the 1st stages - no problem.

What about the stage bottles? Those are stowed with the valve off correct? Half the time The air is bled from those regs as well as they get bumped and purged down. No problem with reg damage there either.

Breathing the reg down will verify to the diver that it is in fact closed and he can continue with his solution knowing that he would loose no more gas from this source. Valves may be half open or even spun the wrong way when things go south. Breathing them down is safer in my mind.

I'm not a tech instructor but this is how I've learnt it through a number of different instructors

 

[bridgediver]

Oxycheq could use a PR guy. Seriously. As a potential customer I think you make some interesting products, but I admit to being turned off by your confrontational style. It's not just this thread, but a pattern over time. Maybe it's just me......

Rich

Its not just you. These guys a rivals and one seems intent on mud slinging the other in a public forum. It amusing to watch but not very wise on the part of the mud slinger. Most people on here aren't dumb and can read between the lines.

Yet another SB thread that began first as a simple question has become an overblown debate on basic diving physics. I'll never be bored with scubaboard around