Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[The Chairman]

"Front loading" doesn't take any more time than teaching them kneeling, because you're not teaching them anything extra.

And there are no bad habits to break that often persist long after their class is over.

As a caveat, I don't believe for a moment that my way of teaching is the only way. It works for me and all of my students, talented or not. I have taught a class of seven using this and a few classes of 6. Mostly, I teach classes of 2 or 3, unless it's a family. I really don't like more than 4 and I think having big classes often results in me wanting to take short cuts and not giving everyone a great time. My class has to be fun. If it ever stops being fun, we stop. We stop for a moment or for the day. If it's not fun, I don't believe they're learning efficiently.

How does this apply to AOW? It's the same thing, except I have to assess where the student is at. In OW, I assume they're all klutzes with no scuba skills. In AOW, I need to assess their trim/buoyancy, their situational awareness, as well as the other scuba skills and experiences. Unless they're a former student, the first dive is almost always in a pool or confined water environment so I can do the assessment and get their basic skills to OW levels. many don't want a pool session, and I ask them to find another instructor. Again, I do my best to make the AOW pool session as fun as possible. Underwater Jenga is always challenging and fun. The more skills they have, the harder the tasks I give them... but again, it's always in the context of a game. AOW does not have to be disappointing. Not by a long shot.

 

[The Chairman]

Do you think you will not be sued over a cm or your ruler not being calibrated?

Instructors get sued when their students have an accident. My goal is to produce divers who are in total control of their diving and so are far less likely to be in an accident. No accident = no suit.

What I see is they are negatively buoyant and compensating with fin kick and once needing to clear the mask, they stop and slowly sink, ending up in kneeling position.

This is a result of having poor trim. If their fins have to be in a downwardish attitude and kicking for them to stay afloat, then they are out of trim. If you introduce the horizontal trim skill from the onset in what I call the "Scuba position", then it shouldn't matter if they are kicking or not. Their buoyancy should remain the same whether they are swimming or hovering.

 

[scubaozy]

Instructors get sued when their students have an accident. My goal is to produce divers who are in total control of their diving and so are far less likely to be in an accident. No accident = no suit.

I am just responding to what you wrote,l you sounded like you were worried about it in your previous post .

This is a result of having poor trim. If their fins have to be in a downwardish attitude and kicking for them to stay afloat, then they are out of trim. If you introduce the horizontal trim skill from the onset in what I call the "Scuba position", then it shouldn't matter if they are kicking or not. Their buoyancy should remain the same whether they are swimming or hovering.

Chicken-egg relation, overall we agree. Question is, whether it is induced by law of primacy as claimed. In my observations, that behavior disappear over time once the divers develop their motorics (is that even a word?) for each skill. If it was due law of primacy, it would have been permanent or hard the beat like other bad habits.

 

[Outbound]

Chicken-egg relation, overall we agree. Question is, whether it is induced by law of primacy as claimed. In my observations, that behavior disappear over time once the divers develop their motorics (is that even a word?) for each skill. If it was due law of primacy, it would have been permanent or hard the beat like other bad habits.

I think it's because the "law of primacy" is tossed around like it is, well, an immutable law of learning. It's not. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that the the law of recency is in fact what's at play.

Think about how many of us were taught on our knees. Do we revert to that behavior each time we dive? Nope. So, while I think teaching neutral and in trim from the start (or close to it) is better, it does not mean that teaching on the knees to start will automatically create terrible divers who will never ever learn to be better divers. There are just too many variables at play to make that strong of a causal link.

We can argue about bad students vs. bad instructors, how great instructors can make great divers out of terrified students, how once a student learns to clear a mask on his/her knees they will always revert to that behavior, etc. And we can do that ad nauseam. Some of that is true. But some of it is not.

Bad instruction + a student who IS NOT interested in continuing to work on his/her diving skills and gain experience = a crappy diver.

Bad instruction + a student who IS interested in continuing to work on dive skills = a diver who will likely get much better and just might turn into a very good diver.

Great instruction + a student who IS NOT interested in being a better diver = likely a so-so diver at best.

Great instruction + a student who IS interested in being a better diver = likely someone who will go on to be a great diver.

There are many roads to the top of the mountain. An instructor's job is to get a student started on the journey. How far they ultimately go is up to them.

 

[scrane]

I know this is a SB truism but there is a reason why it's better to let (some) people kneel early. When the student has below average talent, it's too much task load early on and is aksing too much in the pool. That can cause them to get frustrated and do worse. Especially when they are in a group of 3 or 4 people and they see that other people are doing much better. Letting them do stuff like the mask off skill kneeling in the pool and OW 1 lets them learn in smaller steps. Once they feel they're doing ok with the skills you can let them hoover or be on their fin tips in OW 3 and 4 for the skills. The OW class is not for the instructors ego but for the student to learn basic skills in small steps. OWD cert is a licence to learn.
If you have a good students, you can let them hoover in the pool, but it would be much sense to make it a rule.

This is SB:
One size fits all.
Walk before you crawl!

 

[The Chairman]

sounded like you were worried about it in your previous post

So far, none of my students have been hurt while diving.

that behavior disappear over time

There are also "laws of recency" and so forth. No one law explains the phenomenon of learning. In my trim/buoyancy/propulsion class, I spend a lot of time breaking bad habits. Sometimes it takes more time to correct those bad habits than it does to teach a student properly from the beginning. The rule of primacy does not state that the first way you do something is the ONLY way. However, it does suggest that when frustrated, it's the way you'll eventually return to.

Being prone is not a natural position for most of us. I stand, I sit with my torso mostly upright, and I even sleep on my back or side. The sooner divers get introduced to the prone or Scuba position, the quicker they'll adjust and be comfortable with it. Again, it's important for dive professionals to set a great example. How many times have I seen instructors swimming backwards in a supine position so they can watch their students? That's a bad, bad example. If you're truly in trim, you can drop your head to easily see anyone behind you. Better yet, swim behind or beside them. Let them lead the way and give them confidence in the process. Confidence is a definite goal I have for my AOW students

it does not mean that teaching on the knees to start will automatically create terrible divers who will never ever learn to be better divers.

I learned on my knees. I turned out just fine. I've said this before, the way I teach is not the only way to teach. It's specifically tailored to my teaching strengths and preferences. If you want to teach that way: cool. If you don't: don't.

 

[boulderjohn]

There is a common phenomenon on ScubaBoard where people take everything to an extreme. No one says that it is not possible to learn to dive properly if you are taught initially on the knees. I was initially taught on the knees. Many of the most famous and most impressive divers in world history learned on the knees.

What people are saying is that learning while neutrally buoyant and horizontal speeds up the learning process so that divers finish their initial classes with much more advanced skills than they would have otherwise. Every diver is capable of overcoming a slow start. Why have a slow start?

 

[boulderjohn]

On the other hand....

When I was doing dives for my assistant instructor certification in Key Largo, I saw a sight that had great impact on me. A young woman was literally crawling on the sand because she was obviously ridiculously overweighted. The look on her face said it all. "I am having no fun whatsoever." It is my guess that she was part of a huge percentage of divers who finish a class and then go out and have such a miserable time that they quit diving altogether.

That is the harm of not getting students proper buoyancy instruction during the open water course. Too many divers are grossly overweighted and have no sense of buoyancy or trim. They can't have fun diving that way, and if they aren't having fun, they won't continue diving.

 

[BackAfter30]

On the other hand....

They can't have fun diving that way, and if they aren't having fun, they won't continue diving.

I might have a special knack for teaching skiing to timid mom like people. They want to have fun. They want to go where their kids go as their kids quickly improve past their own skills. They can't go there with their kids because they are scared. They are scared because they don't have good control. You can see that in the faces of some new divers too. They are all out of wack and you can clearly see the stress in their faces. I have success with my moms because I give them the tools to feel in control. I've had many lessons where at the end, mom has a whole different tone about what they will want to do going forward. They can see fun in their future instead of fear. I believe those folks will continue on where, without a breakthrough, they would have quit. If we feel that our sport is more likely to be healthy with more divers, then anything that allows them more success - early lasting success - that will keep more divers more active is a good thing.

 

[Outbound]

On the other hand....

When I was doing dives for my assistant instructor certification in Key Largo, I saw a sight that had great impact on me. A young woman was literally crawling on the sand because she was obviously ridiculously overweighted. The look on her face said it all. "I am having no fun whatsoever." It is my guess that she was part of a huge percentage of divers who finish a class and then go out and have such a miserable time that they quit diving altogether.

That is the harm of not getting students proper buoyancy instruction during the open water course. Too many divers are grossly overweighted and have no sense of buoyancy or trim. They can't have fun diving that way, and if they aren't having fun, they won't continue diving.

On the other, other hand...

All students are supposed to be taught how to do a proper weight check, and it is a skill that is repeated several times in both confined and open water. Yet a lot of divers either skip this step when they go out on their own or just overweight themselves so they know they can sink and not hold up the rest of the boat while they do a weight check. Party this might be due to how they were taught, but partly I think it is out of general laziness and lack of desire to really work on dive skills post-certification.

A few years ago a couple of us from various shops decided to head to a local dive spot for a day. One of the guys brought along a person the rest of us didn't know. He said he was an experienced diver, but we didn't really question it beyond that. The dive plan was an easy one, and he was buddied with the person who invited him. We start the dive and the guy is yo-yoing up and down the water column. He burned through an HP100 in about 30 minutes and gave his buddy the low on air signal and they ascended. The rest of us finished our dive. After, I asked what was up with that yo-yo. Well, turns out that he had rented a bag of weights from his shop and they gave him 30 lbs. total. So he put all 30 lbs. in his BCD without doing a weight check. He ended up being 18 lbs. overweighted. He knew he should have done a weight check but just didn't bother.

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