Accident at Lake Rawlings Sunday 05/27/2012

[dmjay]

My speculation :: Holy Crap !!! :: How Come There Wasn't a DM !?!?!?!?!??!?!

Of course a OW student will be overweighted, but not exceeding our BC limit.

omg I amsure that you are not a diving pro in any form if you were you would know that standards require a dm after 8 students ( I personally
think it should be 4 but I do not write standards.) and as far as students being overweighted I have certified over 300 divers and I do not
overweight any of them..... so your asumption is not fact only your opinion and you know less than most people about this incident. I was
there and from what I eaw with my own eys was a group of professionals doing there very best to rescue someone that they did not know and
took the final outcome hard due to never wanting anyone to have this happen to anyone . now as far as the instructor invouled I pray for him
as well.
I am sure there will be an investigation and someone smarter than all the people at scubaboard will make a call .
just rember what assume really means before offering an opinion on something you dont know anything about


jay

 

[Mark Derail]

I think my conception of "overweight" differs from others that are overly nit picky.

The amount of weight that is "perfect" versus the amount of weight that allows an easier descent, and to stay still on the bottom.

In my case, I needed an extra 2 pounds to be able to stay still on the bottom of 50' of ocean, for my checkout dives. Or else a full breath would make me float up, even with an empty BC.

So I was using 8 pounds + 2, after my checkout dives, I went to 8. At 8 pounds, I float on the surface standing (fins down) at my mask with full lungs. If I empty my lungs, I slowly sink.

An extra 2 pounds - when getting "to know" how much weight you really need - is not dramatic. It just made my life easier doing the skills.

Today, after some 50 dives, I can do all my skills with the "proper" weight and stay still if I want to, because I no longer over-compensate, and no longer flail my arms & hands to try to stay still.

So let's just say, weight-wise, we have four caterogies, for arguments sake :
- perfect weight
- perfect weight + less than 25% extra - newbie "normal" weight - to compensate the excited, flailing diver (that was me)
- over weighted = 50% extra
- grossly over weighted = 100% or more - like in the Tina & Gabe story, and other similar, avoidable accidents.

Now focus the discussion on liability.

I've just had two experienced, instructor level or above divers, correct me on a "nuance". This is side-tracking.
I was talking about liability - can the husband sue the owner/instructor giving the course?

Jay answered that the limit was 8 divers need another DM/Instructor, so legally the Instructor is "safe" from liability on this issue.

Next would be how much weight the victim had on her, and for her size, was she "perfect", "perfect for newbie", or over weighted to grossly over weighted.

I'd say - my opinion - the Instructor would be at fault if the student had too much weight, preventing easy ascent, especially for a panicked student.

The "gray" or not so gray area, could be important if this goes to court. After all, the student need to pass the final exam, on paper & pool, before doing checkout dives.
So perhaps the student wasn't properly prepared.

I'm still flabbergasted that this happened at all - isn't it standard practice that the very first checkout dive is CESA?

 

[Colliam7]

How Come There Wasn't a DM !?!?!?!?!??!?!

In this case, it is not altogether clear that there wasn't. But presuming that there wasn't, here is a scenario to ponder. You are an instructor working with a group class of 6 OW students, they have been training on a schedule, and have spent the past two weekends completing academics, and Confined Water training. You are scheduled to take them to Lake Rawlings on a particular weekend for their Open Water Dives. You, the students, and the DM are all going to drive 2hrs to the dive site, independently, and meet there. You arrive, and all of the students arrive, and you get a mobile phone message from your DM, saying s/he can't make it, they had to go to the ER because of an ear problem. What do you do? Cancel the dives, even though 6 students have driven two hours to be there? Try to find another, available, interested/willing, renewed and insured certified assistant in the crowd at the dive site, to work as your DM? Or, take the students into the water to complete their class?

IMHO - especially for six students - a DM was a NECESSITY and it would be the DM's fault, not the Instructors fault, for losing a Student.

I dare say that, whether everyone posting on this thread agrees with it or not, the larger scuba instruction world would probably not say that a DM is a NECESSITY for a group OW class of 6 students. Personally, I would not want to conduct OW dives for 6 students without one. But, depending on conditions, I might do it, possibly as one large class, or by splitting the class up into two smaller groups of 3 (as Jim mentioned) and then doing four dives myself each day. Without a CA, there will still be logistical challenges. PADI standards require Direct Supervision of the students during OW dives - you cannot leave them unattended at any time during the dives, either on the surface or underwater. So, for several skills - the CESA, and the Alternate Air Source Ascent come immediately to mind - you technically need to have most of the students on shore while you are underwater with the student(s) performing the skill (although I have unfortunately seen a few instructors violate that standard). As for the 'fault', as several have mentioned, it is simply not the case that it would be the DM's fault. The Instructor is responsible. Even if I am doing platform skills with the group of 6 divers, and I assign the DM the task of watching the students I am not working with, I do not have the luxury of taking my eyes off the ones I am not directly working with for any significant period. Part of instructor training is learning how to maintain control in just such a situation, by positioning the students and by visually multi-tasking.

I would like to know PADI/NAUI regulations on such a case. Was the instructor at fault for not having a DM? Is the instructor liable (for not having a DM)?

Absolutely not, in the case of PADI. There is no requirement to have a DM / CA for a class of 6 OW students. I would be surprised if NAUI was very different. Whether the instructor used good judgement is another matter. And, that is something we simply cannot judge - hence the admonition against speculation - until more facts are known; at least, I don't beleive I have enough facts to judge.

Does the agency/agencies that an instructor is certified under suspend their ability to continue to teach until a review can be done on an incident like the one here?

That is a REALLY good question. And, I do not believe that such a suspension occurs, at least with PADI. Presuming there is a review after the Instructor submits an incident report, there may be administrative action to suspend / revoke teaching privileges, require remedial training, etc. I am going to ask our local CD that question today.

 

[Hawkwood]

...isn't it standard practice that the very first checkout dive is CESA?

No, it is not "standard practice". In fact it is a violation of Standards (if you are assuming PADI) to do the CESA's in open water dive 1. In the PADI OW course, the CESA can only be conducted during open water dives 2, 3, or 4.

Bill

 

[supergaijin]

...........

With respect, I think it'd be best to restrain yourself and your opinions regarding diving accidents. Please do not take this as an instructor telling someone less experienced to pipe down, but you're spouting a bit of rubbish on this thread.

 

[Mark Derail]

Respect noted.

My questions have been answered to a certain degree. IMO a few extra pounds, as in 1 or 2, is not a problem for checkout dives, when I did mine just last year.

Plus the CESA was the 2nd checkout, not the first (checked my log). Plus my 10 pounds was considered "perfect". FWIW, I later removed two as I got better at diving (and used lighter warm water fins).

. . . . .

Since the various classes taught here in Montreal *always* have a DM or another instructor present, pool & checkouts, I wanted to know what the official rules were.
Perhaps due to FQAS. I'll check up on that.

For the type of conditions listed in this accident story - a DM would have been better, but I can understand reasons for not having one at certain times / conditions.

 

[dnbsean]

In talking with my friend who was in that training group - to whom should they direct their details about the situation?

-Sean

 

[supergaijin]

They're not 'check out' dives either. These were Open Water training dives.

A 'check out' dive is sometimes required by operators for certified divers who are diving somewhere new, with different conditions from what they may have dived before or for divers without proof of experience for example a logbook.

 

[Mark Derail]

They're not 'check out' dives either. These were Open Water training dives.

A 'check out' dive is sometimes required by operators for certified divers who are diving somewhere new, with different conditions from what they may have dived before or for divers without proof of experience for example a logbook.

If only all dive ops did this...kudos for enforcing that. Will make diving safer for vacationers.

 

[Garth]

In talking with my friend who was in that training group - to whom should they direct their details about the situation?

-Sean

The authorities.