So... your non-diver wife's opinion of how you manage your incompetence is relevant, but those of us with thousands of dives who are telling you that you're incompetent are not?
Makes sense.
Accepting Responsibility for Your Own Safety
- Thread starter FPDocMatt
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
So... your non-diver wife's opinion of how you manage your incompetence is relevant, but those of us with thousands of dives who are telling you that you're incompetent are not?
Makes sense.
gcarter
Contributor
You don't need a DM. You DO need a healthy appreciation of your own capacity and a reliable buddy. If your path to a reliable buddy is to hire a DM, nothing wrong with that - but your buddy still needs to be viewed as backup, not first line defense. That's you. It's about the buddy system, not about paying someone to look after you.
This is like the union mentality that says seniority is everything. It isn't about the # of dives or the certs, its about the skills. There are a lot of people with DM certs and minimal skills, and others with OW certs and superior skills (don't get me wrong, a lot of great DMs too).
Not with a DM, with a good buddy or mentor (who may or may not be a DM), and by limiting his risk profile / type of diving until he is ready to progress with confidence.
Or maybe just not agreeing. There is more than one valid viewpoint afterall.
This particular comment suggests to me that you are only interested in conversing with people who agree with you. Not every different point of view is of malicious intent.
No, he's not ready to make a dive on his own. He should either retake his OW class or get in a few dives with a buddy first until he becomes comfortable. Relying on anyone else for your safety is not smart. What if the DM has a problem?
No, she asked that because she's a non-diver who may not understand that you should be responsible for yourself.
If you are not safe in the water without a DM then millions of OW divers would be dead by now. I strongly urge you to get in some local diving before your next trip. You may even find that you enjoy your local spots.
With a competent buddy would be my first choice. It's cheaper and you will find that you can get in dozens or even hundreds of dives and gain valuable experience before going on your next trip.
That says more than I need to know. You aren't looking for answers, you're looking for anyone who will agree with you. Most divers on Scubaboard have probably made many dives with regular buddies and new friends and learned more than they ever could in a two week course. Experience is a great teacher, and I look forward to some of your posts in a year or two if you are willing to heed some of the advice you've been given on the board.
cbm32
Contributor
I would assert that hiring a well qualified DM (not all are and if you are not checking out the reputation of the DM it can kind of negate the logic of my post here) CAN if fact BE taking responsibility for your own safety. Yes, in the end you are always your own first option to be safe but there is nothing at all wrong with making sure you have a dive buddy that is capable of assisting in an emergency or simply assisting with nav or whatever you are not confident with.
Fresh out of OW I had confidence many of the basics but sure as heck wouldnt have been comfortable diving with anyone that was on the exact same level as me....Kind of the blind leading the blind IMO. I would have been comfortable with an experienced diver as a buddy/mentor, but since I didnt have any of those readily available I went the resort op, DM in the water with insta-buddy route and gradually gained confidence.
Getting near 100 dives now and pretty confident in everything except my nav skills and will probably take a nav course or just go AOW to get the Nav part and the card that will allow me to dive some sites/livaboards that want folks to have that. Looking back, other than Nav skills, I probably was fully capable of diving with someone just like me as a buddy but I didnt know that until diving more and seeing how people handled, or failed to handle, situations. I thought I was ok but sorta sucked until I saw people in the water that truly sucked LOL.
Fresh out of OW I had confidence many of the basics but sure as heck wouldnt have been comfortable diving with anyone that was on the exact same level as me....Kind of the blind leading the blind IMO. I would have been comfortable with an experienced diver as a buddy/mentor, but since I didnt have any of those readily available I went the resort op, DM in the water with insta-buddy route and gradually gained confidence.
Getting near 100 dives now and pretty confident in everything except my nav skills and will probably take a nav course or just go AOW to get the Nav part and the card that will allow me to dive some sites/livaboards that want folks to have that. Looking back, other than Nav skills, I probably was fully capable of diving with someone just like me as a buddy but I didnt know that until diving more and seeing how people handled, or failed to handle, situations. I thought I was ok but sorta sucked until I saw people in the water that truly sucked LOL.
drrich2
Contributor
I think you gave a reasonable summary of how these discussions tend to go, and one thing I've learned on ScubaBoard is that there are some different, very strongly held and irreconcilable beliefs about just how 'independent' someone should be to dive. In a sport that emphasizes buddy diving because you 'shouldn't go it alone' (though solo diving is gaining some acceptance).
A big question is in what way the Dive Master is supposed to 'keep you safe.' Many of us aren't good navigators, and may never achieve that state of seasoned multitasking so as to be dropped in a strange place, swim off & around exploring & paying attention to the reefs, yet somehow maintain an ongoing & accurate grasp of their geographical position relative to a dive boat & pop back out of the water right by the boat, without a guide.
Ain't...gonna...happen... (for a whole lot of people).
And I believe you will find people who may bitterly contend that those people, irrespective of their diving competence otherwise and years and dozens of dives (guided unless shore diving), should never receive a basic OW certification.
And you will hear from them in threads that get into this.
Now, if you're relying on a Dive Master to make sure you don't go too deep, and remember to check your air, well, that's a bit much. If the DM is also leading your dive, then it'll pretty much by default not be too long or too deep by recreational limits, and for a leader to occasionally 'touch base' with his followers to see how much air everybody has is good practice (my little group of family/friends does this, and none of us is a diving professional).
Richard.
A big question is in what way the Dive Master is supposed to 'keep you safe.' Many of us aren't good navigators, and may never achieve that state of seasoned multitasking so as to be dropped in a strange place, swim off & around exploring & paying attention to the reefs, yet somehow maintain an ongoing & accurate grasp of their geographical position relative to a dive boat & pop back out of the water right by the boat, without a guide.
Ain't...gonna...happen... (for a whole lot of people).
And I believe you will find people who may bitterly contend that those people, irrespective of their diving competence otherwise and years and dozens of dives (guided unless shore diving), should never receive a basic OW certification.
And you will hear from them in threads that get into this.
Now, if you're relying on a Dive Master to make sure you don't go too deep, and remember to check your air, well, that's a bit much. If the DM is also leading your dive, then it'll pretty much by default not be too long or too deep by recreational limits, and for a leader to occasionally 'touch base' with his followers to see how much air everybody has is good practice (my little group of family/friends does this, and none of us is a diving professional).
Richard.
Matt, we've gone around before, and really, it's not so much that I'm trying to give you a hard time, but that I really, seriously disagree with your premises.
I don't disagree that there may be benefit in someone hiring a DM to dive with him. I am lucky enough not to have to deal with instabuddies unless I want to, since I travel with at least one built-in buddy (my husband) and sometimes more. If I traveled a lot alone, and given the stories we hear here about random buddies, I might well choose the route of hiring a DM to dive with me, simply because I could dictate to that person how I wanted the dive to be done, and I could hope the person would have the skills to do it that way. (Stay together, follow the plan, stay within pre-agreed gas limits.) As someone who's been diving actively for seven years, I can pretty much take up the slack for an inattentive buddy, or even one who deliberately violates the limits we set (so long as I am willing to go where they go). But a less experienced diver might be highly stressed in that kind of situation, and no matter who you are, it's irritating in the extreme when you have to give up enjoying your own dive because you have no time to do anything but watch your buddy.
The only place where you and I really differ is that, at least from what you write, it appears that you really don't feel competent to do the dives you are doing unless you have someone with professional training to prevent something bad from happening to you. If you truly feel that way, you are diving above your comfort level, and that's not really a great idea. Your comment that you are better protected from DCS if you have a DM with you really bothers me, because, as I said above, there are really only two ways in which a DM can protect you from DCS. One is to make sure you stay within no-deco limits, which really is your responsibility and should be entirely within your capabilities, and the other is to prevent you from reaching an unsafe ascent rate, which again is something you ought to be able to do for yourself -- and if you can't do it, you should be keeping your dives extremely shallow and simple until you can.
Basic OW dives are actually pretty simple. You descend, you swim around, you check your gas, you begin to ascend when you hit your predetermined gas limits, and you control your ascent to a safe rate until you reach the surface. All of these things should be within your capacity as someone with a number of dives past open water. I do understand the desire to have someone with familiarity with the site to plan the course, and to serve as some insurance against people losing the anchor line or boat. I ceded responsibility for navigation to my buddy/mentor when I was new, for a number of dives . . . but they were all done in places where, if worst came to worst, I could just surface and swim in on top. I do think a lot of divers follow guides on dives where they couldn't retrace their steps if the dive guide evaporated, and there are issues with that, especially in more remote places, but I don't get the feeling that navigation is the only thing you're expecting the DM to do for you.
If you want to buy yourself insurance by hiring a DM to dive with you, be my guest. But I really think you should give some serious thought to how much that person can or should be responsible for your safety, and I think you should identify the diving skills you feel you aren't capable of safely doing for yourself, and getting some mentoring or additional training to remedy those deficiencies.
I don't disagree that there may be benefit in someone hiring a DM to dive with him. I am lucky enough not to have to deal with instabuddies unless I want to, since I travel with at least one built-in buddy (my husband) and sometimes more. If I traveled a lot alone, and given the stories we hear here about random buddies, I might well choose the route of hiring a DM to dive with me, simply because I could dictate to that person how I wanted the dive to be done, and I could hope the person would have the skills to do it that way. (Stay together, follow the plan, stay within pre-agreed gas limits.) As someone who's been diving actively for seven years, I can pretty much take up the slack for an inattentive buddy, or even one who deliberately violates the limits we set (so long as I am willing to go where they go). But a less experienced diver might be highly stressed in that kind of situation, and no matter who you are, it's irritating in the extreme when you have to give up enjoying your own dive because you have no time to do anything but watch your buddy.
The only place where you and I really differ is that, at least from what you write, it appears that you really don't feel competent to do the dives you are doing unless you have someone with professional training to prevent something bad from happening to you. If you truly feel that way, you are diving above your comfort level, and that's not really a great idea. Your comment that you are better protected from DCS if you have a DM with you really bothers me, because, as I said above, there are really only two ways in which a DM can protect you from DCS. One is to make sure you stay within no-deco limits, which really is your responsibility and should be entirely within your capabilities, and the other is to prevent you from reaching an unsafe ascent rate, which again is something you ought to be able to do for yourself -- and if you can't do it, you should be keeping your dives extremely shallow and simple until you can.
Basic OW dives are actually pretty simple. You descend, you swim around, you check your gas, you begin to ascend when you hit your predetermined gas limits, and you control your ascent to a safe rate until you reach the surface. All of these things should be within your capacity as someone with a number of dives past open water. I do understand the desire to have someone with familiarity with the site to plan the course, and to serve as some insurance against people losing the anchor line or boat. I ceded responsibility for navigation to my buddy/mentor when I was new, for a number of dives . . . but they were all done in places where, if worst came to worst, I could just surface and swim in on top. I do think a lot of divers follow guides on dives where they couldn't retrace their steps if the dive guide evaporated, and there are issues with that, especially in more remote places, but I don't get the feeling that navigation is the only thing you're expecting the DM to do for you.
If you want to buy yourself insurance by hiring a DM to dive with you, be my guest. But I really think you should give some serious thought to how much that person can or should be responsible for your safety, and I think you should identify the diving skills you feel you aren't capable of safely doing for yourself, and getting some mentoring or additional training to remedy those deficiencies.
DevonDiver
N/A
1) As an Open Water diver, you are qualified to conduct scuba dives, with an equally or higher qualified buddy, to the limits of your qualification, without professional supervision.
Are you saying that you believe your actual competence does not equate to the qualification you hold?
If so, you need to resolve that competence deficit.
2) A PADI Divemaster exists to provide supervision for divers. That is a stipulation for all PADI Dive Centers, in their membership agreement. That DM supervision may be in-water or out-of-water. It may be direct (DM with a group/pair) or in-direct (DM supervising multiple independent groups/pairs).
At no point is a divemaster trained, employed or intended to be a wet-nurse for qualified divers. Such beliefs should be dispelled. They are there to ensure that the divers are doing things properly and to provide specific information to enable divers to dive independently. Nothing more, nothing less.
Enable (Verb): (1) Give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something (2) Make possible.
Matt, do you see a divemaster as an 'enabler' for your diving... or something more?
If so, why?
Are you saying that you believe your actual competence does not equate to the qualification you hold?
If so, you need to resolve that competence deficit.
2) A PADI Divemaster exists to provide supervision for divers. That is a stipulation for all PADI Dive Centers, in their membership agreement. That DM supervision may be in-water or out-of-water. It may be direct (DM with a group/pair) or in-direct (DM supervising multiple independent groups/pairs).
At no point is a divemaster trained, employed or intended to be a wet-nurse for qualified divers. Such beliefs should be dispelled. They are there to ensure that the divers are doing things properly and to provide specific information to enable divers to dive independently. Nothing more, nothing less.
Enable (Verb): (1) Give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something (2) Make possible.
Matt, do you see a divemaster as an 'enabler' for your diving... or something more?
If so, why?
ferris213
Contributor
When I started diving I wanted to always dive with a DM. In my area that means a Qualified DM (as opposed to a dive guide) that lead a group of people around the site, would keep tabs of them and question their air, and dictate the duration of the dive.
This is because my training didn't instil in me the confidence to do these things on my own in a buddy pair. I thought if I had a problem I would need someone to help me.
After a while I was on a boat where they didn't put a DM in the water. My first dive without a professional 'watching over me' and I realised I didn't need them all along. As Lynn said above, the essentials of a recreational open water dive really aren't that hard.
I have seen people on this thread giving Matt a hard time on not accepting responsibility, but haven't heard what he actually expects from a DM. Matt, what to you rely on a DM for? What do you expect, and what do you hope they would do for you if you found yourself in trouble?
This is because my training didn't instil in me the confidence to do these things on my own in a buddy pair. I thought if I had a problem I would need someone to help me.
After a while I was on a boat where they didn't put a DM in the water. My first dive without a professional 'watching over me' and I realised I didn't need them all along. As Lynn said above, the essentials of a recreational open water dive really aren't that hard.
I have seen people on this thread giving Matt a hard time on not accepting responsibility, but haven't heard what he actually expects from a DM. Matt, what to you rely on a DM for? What do you expect, and what do you hope they would do for you if you found yourself in trouble?
The thing is, depending on where you're diving, there may not be a DM on the boat, never mind in the water. New divers out here in the UK don't get into the sea with a DM. They get in with a buddy (sometimes 2), carry out their dives, surface, etc.
I learned to dive in the Caribbean, while working on cruise ships. A good majority of my first 50 or so dives were DM guided, but that's all the DMs were, a guide.
Then I moved to the UK. No guides/DMs/etc in the water outside of training dives. The boat that gets you to the dive site is essentially a shuttle. Skipper gives you a briefing of the site, lets you know when/if you need to deploy your SMB, and tells you when it's safe to get in the water. You let him know about how long your max dive time will be and you and your buddy discuss minimum gas, etc. You load your kit onto the boat (including tanks and weights), set it up, check its in working order, etc. When you get back on board, usually the skipper has some sort of hot drink or soup waiting for you.
I've done nearly 100 dives in the past year. Many with a diver I met through SB who became my mentor and introduced me to UK diving. He took me on my first UK sea dives. I don't get to dive with him much anymore, but because of his mentoring, this year, I'm going on slightly more challenging sea dives, getting progressively deeper, etc (diving in the UK is much different than diving in the clear blue). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you don't NEED a DM in the water Matt. Maybe you just need to find an experienced mentor to dive with. Help to build up your confidence in the water. Because one day, there may not be a DM or guide.
I learned to dive in the Caribbean, while working on cruise ships. A good majority of my first 50 or so dives were DM guided, but that's all the DMs were, a guide.
Then I moved to the UK. No guides/DMs/etc in the water outside of training dives. The boat that gets you to the dive site is essentially a shuttle. Skipper gives you a briefing of the site, lets you know when/if you need to deploy your SMB, and tells you when it's safe to get in the water. You let him know about how long your max dive time will be and you and your buddy discuss minimum gas, etc. You load your kit onto the boat (including tanks and weights), set it up, check its in working order, etc. When you get back on board, usually the skipper has some sort of hot drink or soup waiting for you.
I've done nearly 100 dives in the past year. Many with a diver I met through SB who became my mentor and introduced me to UK diving. He took me on my first UK sea dives. I don't get to dive with him much anymore, but because of his mentoring, this year, I'm going on slightly more challenging sea dives, getting progressively deeper, etc (diving in the UK is much different than diving in the clear blue). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you don't NEED a DM in the water Matt. Maybe you just need to find an experienced mentor to dive with. Help to build up your confidence in the water. Because one day, there may not be a DM or guide.
Matt,
I have followed a lot of your posts since you first started here on SB. I don't think a lot of people on here have a problem with a brand new vacation diver hiring a private DM to help them increase their skills in an unfamiliar location. To me, that is the responsible thing to do, given the circumstances and their training level. The problem I have is with someone like yourself, who is supposed to be OW, AOW, Nitrox and Rescue trained, who has been to Coz before, feeling so uncomfortable with their skill sets that they feel the need to hire a private DM in a place where a guide is provided. For me, it all relates to how you managed to get a rescue cert card when you are not totally comfortable with your own skills. If you are using the divemaster to help you increase your skills, dial in your weighting, help you with bouyancy skills, thats one thing, but you indicate that you want them to help keep you from doing something stupid, then I question your training.
I have followed a lot of your posts since you first started here on SB. I don't think a lot of people on here have a problem with a brand new vacation diver hiring a private DM to help them increase their skills in an unfamiliar location. To me, that is the responsible thing to do, given the circumstances and their training level. The problem I have is with someone like yourself, who is supposed to be OW, AOW, Nitrox and Rescue trained, who has been to Coz before, feeling so uncomfortable with their skill sets that they feel the need to hire a private DM in a place where a guide is provided. For me, it all relates to how you managed to get a rescue cert card when you are not totally comfortable with your own skills. If you are using the divemaster to help you increase your skills, dial in your weighting, help you with bouyancy skills, thats one thing, but you indicate that you want them to help keep you from doing something stupid, then I question your training.
Similar threads
