gj62
Contributor
Being mean? To an urchin? Now I've heard everything! You people need to get some perspective...kelpmermaid:
Abuse of marine life by Scuba Schools of America.
- Thread starter DocVikingo
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H2Andy
Contributor
we're not there yet, but we're getting close.
just a reminder to keep the argument free of personal attacks.
just a reminder to keep the argument free of personal attacks.
Gj62,
I realize that what you are doing with urchins is by no means as harmful as the original video that created this thread where the diver was holding a shark in his left hand while shooting video of it trying to swim with his right hand. You and I both know that the level of interaction here is completely different. I do not expect you to have the same kind of views as me, Kelpmermaid, Tonyc, and few others. My only concern with the urchin feed is if others follow your lead and take it a step further. Thus breeding the original video.
BTW, the Angel Sharks only swim a few feet away and lay in the sand because that is how they hide. They are not free swimmers like most other sharks. That is why they did not leave the area where the divers in the video were perched.
Matthew
I realize that what you are doing with urchins is by no means as harmful as the original video that created this thread where the diver was holding a shark in his left hand while shooting video of it trying to swim with his right hand. You and I both know that the level of interaction here is completely different. I do not expect you to have the same kind of views as me, Kelpmermaid, Tonyc, and few others. My only concern with the urchin feed is if others follow your lead and take it a step further. Thus breeding the original video.
BTW, the Angel Sharks only swim a few feet away and lay in the sand because that is how they hide. They are not free swimmers like most other sharks. That is why they did not leave the area where the divers in the video were perched.
Matthew
gj62
Contributor
1) I've commercially fished 1,000's of urchins in a single day. In fact, I'd go so far as to say in 1 month commercial fishers harvest more urchins than rec divers to in a year.
2) I've seen angel sharks book quite a long ways when perturbed, as well as turn and bite. However, I've also seen otters swim under and around me during my entire dive while harvesting urchins, as long as I allowed them a few freebies. They've even bitten me a few times - you can see one scar on my calf.
So here's the deal.
Its a matter of perspective. You've granted me that my interaction is not as harmful as the video - how do you know? The whole BS of a butterfly flapping its wings says we should all die before we inadvertantly cause mischief.
Suppose we found out that our touching a creature who's on an evolutionary scale that's equivalent to a snail in your yard actually has no bearing on it's life? Wow.
Here's a test - do you actively prevent any animal (yes, I'll draw the line here out of fairness) from pursing it's natural course? Do you set ant/mouse/fly traps? Do you kill insects when they are invading your pantry? Do you set golpher traps when they arrive in your horse pasture? Would you allow a coyote to carry off your lamb because "it's natural"?
If you say "no" to all of these, then do you make others do that for you? Think carefully before answering...
If you answer no to all of the above (and I have some neighbors that can), then you've earned my grudging respect and realistic contempt.
2) I've seen angel sharks book quite a long ways when perturbed, as well as turn and bite. However, I've also seen otters swim under and around me during my entire dive while harvesting urchins, as long as I allowed them a few freebies. They've even bitten me a few times - you can see one scar on my calf.
So here's the deal.
Its a matter of perspective. You've granted me that my interaction is not as harmful as the video - how do you know? The whole BS of a butterfly flapping its wings says we should all die before we inadvertantly cause mischief.
Suppose we found out that our touching a creature who's on an evolutionary scale that's equivalent to a snail in your yard actually has no bearing on it's life? Wow.
Here's a test - do you actively prevent any animal (yes, I'll draw the line here out of fairness) from pursing it's natural course? Do you set ant/mouse/fly traps? Do you kill insects when they are invading your pantry? Do you set golpher traps when they arrive in your horse pasture? Would you allow a coyote to carry off your lamb because "it's natural"?
If you say "no" to all of these, then do you make others do that for you? Think carefully before answering...
If you answer no to all of the above (and I have some neighbors that can), then you've earned my grudging respect and realistic contempt.
gj62
Contributor
Put a different way, I'll bet there is no "line in the sand" we can draw between any two of us as to the appropriate interaction between us and someone/something under our temporary control - be it a child, dog or wild animal.
Stated another way, I've seen people who claim to love dogs - who raise them and interview prospective adoptees more stringently that I do my babysitters, treat the dogs in borderline ways. When questioned, I get oblique answers. My guess is that we would all have the same experience were we in a room together. While I freely admit that I would not be labeled as a vegan, my guess is my treatment of the animals would only differ - and not be more extreme - than many others.
We're arguing something that has nothing to do with people realizing their impact on animals - but that all animals have the same evolutionary rights as any other animal. Those that see all things on the same scale - well, I can't argue with them - I think their entire premise is flawed. Those that realize that there is a realm, a continuum, if you will, of life on the planet, will recognize that you cannot judge your concept of treatment from different rungs on the ladder.
Therefore, while I respect your right to an opinion, I do not find that it has merit or substance in how I choose to approach my interaction while diving, and the instruction of others.
Stated another way, I've seen people who claim to love dogs - who raise them and interview prospective adoptees more stringently that I do my babysitters, treat the dogs in borderline ways. When questioned, I get oblique answers. My guess is that we would all have the same experience were we in a room together. While I freely admit that I would not be labeled as a vegan, my guess is my treatment of the animals would only differ - and not be more extreme - than many others.
We're arguing something that has nothing to do with people realizing their impact on animals - but that all animals have the same evolutionary rights as any other animal. Those that see all things on the same scale - well, I can't argue with them - I think their entire premise is flawed. Those that realize that there is a realm, a continuum, if you will, of life on the planet, will recognize that you cannot judge your concept of treatment from different rungs on the ladder.
Therefore, while I respect your right to an opinion, I do not find that it has merit or substance in how I choose to approach my interaction while diving, and the instruction of others.
I would like to heartily protest the comments made regarding evolutionary scale similarities between "snails in a garden" and sea urchins. That's functionally equivalent to lumping magnolias with tree ferns. Oh the humanity. The evolutionary error offset is in the scale of tens if not a hundred million years, not even counting lineage divergences.
The best reason NOT to mess with the marine life. Read the posts and take a look at the pictures.
Fish bites off divers finger.
Pictures at the bottom of the page
Fish bites off divers finger.
Pictures at the bottom of the page
John H. Moore
Contributor
Don't allow yourselves to get pulled into the pointless and unanswerable arguments about whether you're hurting the angel shark or comparing scales of damage to sea urchins (rec feeding vs. commercial).
To be blunt: who cares whether you're hurting the critters? It's not about whether you've killed an urchin or stressed an angel shark. It's about respect. It's about whether diving for you involves being as natural a part as you can be of an amazing other environment and respecting it... or whether you're just there to crap on things.
I don't care whether Rusty stressed the angel sharks, I care that he's teaching disrespect.
To be blunt: who cares whether you're hurting the critters? It's not about whether you've killed an urchin or stressed an angel shark. It's about respect. It's about whether diving for you involves being as natural a part as you can be of an amazing other environment and respecting it... or whether you're just there to crap on things.
I don't care whether Rusty stressed the angel sharks, I care that he's teaching disrespect.
gj62
Contributor
Respecting a sea urchin - now that's a new one...
Respecting the environment as a whole? Sure. But any level of interaction causes change and I reject your arguement that feeding a garibaldi an urchin or distrubing a nurse shark is disrespecting the environment...
I guess next I'll have to take down my hummingbird feeder because I'm disrupting their natural diet...
Respecting the environment as a whole? Sure. But any level of interaction causes change and I reject your arguement that feeding a garibaldi an urchin or distrubing a nurse shark is disrespecting the environment...
I guess next I'll have to take down my hummingbird feeder because I'm disrupting their natural diet...
John H. Moore
Contributor
gj62:
It's meaningless sophistry and not worth the time.
But I'll give you a challenge, based upon the video. Go to a public park, with the more people the better. Find a squirrel. Grab it. Restrain it by it's forearms. Spend some time posing it for a camera. Then find another squirrel. Repeat. Do this to as many squirrels as you can find. See how the people around you react. See how long it takes for the police to show up.
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