A DM without insurance

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Noticing a few things here, and thought I might try to clarify some.

First off, SelkieDVM, the insurance would probably cover you, even on vacation. The reasoning is circular, but it could be used:

You are a DM on vacation and there is an accident. You assist, and things go badly. Because you are a DM, you used those learned skills to choose to help someone. Therefore you are acting in a professional, supervisory role. Like I said, its circular, and no, I don't think it has to make more sense than that.

Second, in response to Ron.

The lawyers would find out your actual cert level if you were sued following a dive incident. I think the truck driver analogy is the wrong one, and here's why.

The type of situation you are talking about would likely involve the voluntary (on the DM's part) aid to someone else. At least in the US. We're talking good samaritan laws where there is no requirement to render aid. If you voluntarily help, but do so in a why that is or might be negligent, then you can be held responsible later. The level of care you would be expected to provide would be that of someone with your level of training (among other factors, but this isn't an in depth legal discussion). In this case a DM. It wouldn't matter whether that DM was actually working.

To provide a different analogy, and one I think fits a bit better:

A retired doctor is walking down the street and witnesses a car accident. He chooses to help, and something goes wrong. His training as a doctor would certainly be taken into account if he messed up. This is despite the voluntary nature of his aid, and the fact that he is retired. He cannot unbecome a doctor. A DM cannot unbecome a DM to avoid liability. SelkieDVM and The Kraken made related points above.

The problem with the truck driver analogy, is that would be decided by motor vehicle codes, and some jurisdictions may well hold a professional driver to a higher standard. But a vehicle code is likely to hold a similar level of responsibility to all drivers on the road. The same is not true of people rendering aid to others. Someone with zero CPR or first aid experience is not going to be held to the same standard as someone who teaches CPR and first aid classes.

All that being said, whether you are sued, what standard is used, or the likelihood of a particular outcome is dependent on the law in your jurisdiction. I haven't done any research on this, so I wouldn't be willing to say, definitively, what the rule would be, in either the jurisdiction I'm licensed in, or the one I currently live in.

Ultimately, being a professional will carry greater responsibility, whether you are being paid or not. You're going to have to make a personal choice whether liability insurance is worth it. Speaking to DMs, I know many more who went without insurance than with. If I was a DM that didn't work as a DM, I'm not sure I would want to pay for something, which quite honestly, would probably never help me. Of course, that's how insurance companies make (or at least made) money.

Sorry for the rambling. Hope this helped.
 
When I am wanting to get to a couple of sites in Brisbane and Cairns and I use a LDS I do not show my Instructor card, I produce my rescue. I have found some people are intimidated when they see you are an instructor.
I am in Status though not insured, so whilst in Australia and some pacific regions I cannot teach without the insurance, but I can teach in most countries in sth east asia which do not require myself to have insurance. PNG and Thailand does not require the instructor to have insurance, good luck to someone trying to sue there.

I do remember a conversation our CD had about the possibility of a US citizen suing, a expate US instructor should that instructor return to the USofA.

Isn't true suing is the national pass-time of the USA? It certainly isn't taking responsibility for ones actions.
 
Isn't true suing is the national pass-time of the USA? It certainly isn't taking responsibility for ones actions.

Sadly, this does appear to be the case. It's the lottery of the 21st century - wait to get injured, file a lawsuit against anyone you can blame.

-B
 
Last edited:
okay my tuppence worth

(1) You can be sued anywhere, anytime, by anybody, regardless. Even if you think the law doesn't apply it takes one person to file anything and even if the law doesn't technically apply it still means court and police and basically screwing up your life

(2) there are places in the world where dive / professional insurance is not a requirement to work as a dive professional. Thailand is one of them. However I know a case in Thailand where a Japanese guy sued a Thai DM for putting him on oxygen after a dodgy dive profile...

(3) If you're an instructor or DM whatever - do NOT pretend you're not. Technically (working or not) you have a duty of care to other divers. BIG grey area but imagine you're on a boat pretending to be an advanced diver when really you're an instructor. Something bad happens. You didn't help. A clever lawyer could instigate proceedings... guilty or not is irrelevant, it will be a painful process.

(4) Get insurance. Get DAN insurance. It's relatively inexpensive and will cover you for a lot of stuff that nobody else will. Again, I am talking from experience. PLEASE

It may never happen - but it MIGHT. As always - if you wish to talk confidentially, please do not hesitate to PM or mail me.

Dive safe, dive insured,

C.
 
Crowley
I am not "pretending" to be anything.
I have been certified to be a rescue diver, just so happens I am also an MSDT, all I am doing is giving them the lesser of my certifications.

If something goes wrong I certainly would not sit back and not help and in any case.
Having Dan insurance is very different to having Instructor insurance.
I have DAN accident insurance.
 
(3) If you're an instructor or DM whatever - do NOT pretend you're not. Technically (working or not) you have a duty of care to other divers.
C.

First, I might mention that not discussing your certifications is not pretending you're not. Ask a doctor how often they don't mention that little fact. Once asked though...

Of course, the law varies everywhere, but there is NO duty to assist in Texas. One of my students (a lawyer) did several research articles on diving-related issues in Texas. One of them was concerning providing care in the event of an emergency. Many places do have such an implied duty of care, pro or not.

Unless there is some relationship established that involves duty of care (hired or buddy, etc), there is no requirement to assist in Texas - period. You can have a CPR certification you just earned, and walk past a person having a heart attack while waving the card. Tacky, unprofessional, callous? Yes. But as far as his digging into Texas law, no obligation to assist exists for the good samaritan.

Now, can you get sued? In this country you can always get sued. But remember, if the lawyer cannot find enough money to make it worth his/her while, you're not a likely target unless they have something strong to go on.

Talk to a practicing lawyer. They don't sue just to keep busy, they sue for $$$. If there isn't enough to make their time and effort worth it, you're not an attractive target.

Have instructors been sued successfully when they really had no direct control or relationship with the student? Of course. Some lay-persons think that we have some sort of legal authority. Let's face it, many people have many misconceptions about what authority an instructor has. And if you get a jury like that, you're going to have a bad day.

As I've said before in other posts, there is no LEGAL authority in being an instructor. You can print up your own little card from your own little made-up agency and call yourself an instructor and no laws were broken. If you get sued, you're on your own and may well lose everything, but since there is no legal definition of what it takes to be an instructor, there is no mis-representation of being one.

Just thought I'd toss that out for a bit more to think about.
 
In Australia the agency would have to be recognised.
It would be illegal to just start your own agency, and call yourself an instructor without the correct Government licence and approvals just like any other business here.

An instructor in AUstralia also requires a commercial diving medical to work for most dive shops and if teaching First AId requires a training certification which used to be called Cert 4 as well as the Instructor certification.
 
hi folks - I didn't phrase that 'pretending' question correctly - and didn't mean to cause offence by doing so. Please accept my apologies.

I am sure you lovely people would of course help out if required, but there are some who may not. :)

With the DAN thing - I should have also mentioned that DAN Europe offer professional liability insurance, and I am European and therefore fully covered for both personal accidents and insurance whilst teaching. I forgot that other DAN offices don't do this (yet).

Safe diving

C.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom