A deceptively easy way to die

[KevinNM]

I believe Edd Sorenson saved a girl after her OW instructor father took her and her brother into a cave. The father and son were the only two that came out. Lucky for the girl Edd was near by and saved her. This isn't the case for other unlucky individuals. If it's so obvious the danger isn't there why is it that most people who have died in caves weren't trained?

IIRC, Edd has about half of the total cave rescues in the entire world. And lot more body recoveries than rescues.

 

[edwants2dive]

My $.02:
I read threads like this and "accident" reports they scare the hell out of me BUT I still want to dive! They make me think of my limits and of the things I absolutly will not do. They make me more sure of the fact that I will not be afraid to call a dive and not give in to peer preasure with the attitude that if you want to risk your life you will do it without me along for the ride.

 

[IVC]

Still, it seems to me most divers will never hear much of cave deaths or think them relevant to themselves, and at any rate will likely think the advice self-evident.

So balancing (another) patronizing invitation to fearfulness in the Basic forum against the arguable impact, it seems just another example of 'another day, not much going on... hey, ring the danger bell!'

That's a naive view. If dangers were "self-evident" there wouldn't be countless bodies throughout the history of any activity with inherent danger. Protocols are developed and refined on dead bodies. Just look at the main task of, e.g., FAA - it's translating the what you call "self-evident" into truly routine protocols based on *knowledge*.

For example, if you were hiking and saw a nice large cave where you can see inside, how dangerous would you consider it to go inside and look? Now add water and you suddenly expect people to recognize potential dangers that very experienced early cave divers didn't and had paid with their lives for the mistake?

 

[spoolin01]

That's a naive view. If dangers were "self-evident" there wouldn't be countless bodies throughout the history of any activity with inherent danger. Protocols are developed and refined on dead bodies. Just look at the main task of, e.g., FAA - it's translating the what you call "self-evident" into truly routine protocols based on *knowledge*.

Yeah, but if you could just step out of an airplane when things got dicey, FAA wouldn't seem so pertinent. There is no such body count.

The simple truth is that these lessons apply to a lot more than cave divers, and I dispute the notion that "adults" will recognize the obvious danger. Many ... if not most ... would not.

We humans are incredibly good at thinking we're more skilled at many things than we actually are. In scuba, that can tendency can get you into all sorts of problems you're not qualified to get yourself out of. Those who survive the experience often decide that diving isn't for them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't know where you find these folks, maybe your practice attracts an odd mix. I'm confident most I've ever met would instantly regard entering a cave underwater - beyond a couple of feet just for the fun - without training as something to take a second thought about, whether they were OW certified or not. I'm also going to venture that most people make up their mind about scuba from other influences, which is what I intended the gist of my criticism to be.

My $.02:
I read threads like this and "accident" reports they scare the hell out of me BUT I still want to dive! They make me think of my limits and of the things I absolutly will not do. They make me more sure of the fact that I will not be afraid to call a dive and not give in to peer preasure with the attitude that if you want to risk your life you will do it without me along for the ride.

Good on you for shaking it off and knowing what's appropriate and sticking with it. Many will just assume if all the supposed pros are saying how dangerous it is that maybe they should stay away.

 

[Storker]

Many will just assume if all the supposed pros are saying how dangerous it is that maybe they should stay away.

If that's the case, maybe that someone or those "many" who aren't that dedicated and willing (or competent) to take an informed decision would be better off by staying away. I'm neither dedicated enough nor competent enough to venture into a cave, or even evaluate the risks in a cavern or sanitized wreck. I am, however, competent enough to realize that I should stay well away from that kind of environments. And frankly, I think that's a pretty smart decision.

After the much publicized double fatality in a cave in Norway one and a half year ago, quite a few of my non-diving friends asked me about risks in diving. They obviously didn't understand that there's a deep and fundamental difference between deep cave diving and simple recreational OW bimbles. I replied with a comparison they could relate to, that that type of diving was to my diving what an expedition to Everest or K2 is to a hike in a recreational area.

IMO, a diver who can't see the difference between OW diving and overhead diving in narrow rock tunnels should seriously reconsider their competence and mental fitness to dive. Drowning in an overhead you can't find your way out from is a crappy way to die.

 

[Skulmoski]

Thanks; I liked that. Coming from a risk management background, prevention and mitigation are near and dear to me. Videos like this help me become a safer diver.

Regards

GJS

 

[chillyinCanada]

My instructor so imparted a respect of overhead that to this day, I'll not venture into the most benign sanitized open wreck.

 

[kensuf]

Yea, and so are news reports about uncertified divers killing themselves in caves.

On Christmas day.

 

[IVC]

Yeah, but if you could just step out of an airplane when things got dicey, FAA wouldn't seem so pertinent.

If you could just step out of an underwater cave when things got dicey, the video in OP wouldn't seem so pertinent either. The problem is that one cannot.

Let's make a quick test. Ask your *non diving* friends about seeing an underwater cave and *itemizing* potential dangers. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that exactly zero will list stirring up silt and not being able to find the way out. That's enough to sink (no pun intended) the theory that "going into underwater caves is a self-evident risk."

To be fair, I see and partially agree with your point of view about not scaring new divers, but I think there is a better way of showing how safe OW diving is than pretending risks in certain environments don't exist. This is particularly true when year after year *OW divers* die going into environments for which they are not trained. That alone clearly shows that risks are far from being self evident.

 

[rivers]

I'm confident most I've ever met would instantly regard entering a cave underwater - beyond a couple of feet just for the fun - without training as something to take a second thought about, whether they were OW certified or not.

You can still stir up the silt enough to obscure the entrance to a cave just by going in "a couple of feet". Non-certified cave divers have absolutely no business in caves.