90 degree elbow on second stage

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Okay, I like a good discussion. So let me tell you where I'm coming from. I am a retired Industrial Hygienist, who has had quite a lot of training in industrial ventilation. I also am a diver who has been diving since 1959, have gone through the U.S. Navy School for Underwater Swimmers, and collects old regulators for use in local rivers. I was a Certified Industrial Hygienist until this year, when I did a "voluntary surrender" of that designation, and had that since 2006. If you'll look at the American Conference of Industrial Hygiene's book, Industrial Ventilation, on page 9-50 there is a figure 9-e which details duct losses. The 90-degree swivel mentioned in this thread is the equivalent of a "Mitered Elbow," and itself has a loss coefficient of 1.2. This is for air at atmospheric pressures, not for compressed air. I would assume that for compressed air, the loss would be greater, due to the greater density of the air. Any turn will cause turbulence in the air flow. When we do an industrial ventilation study, we use some rather complex equations to determine what the velocity pressure losses will be. These could be used in scuba regulators too, as fluid dynamics is much the same, only the losses are increased with the denser air.

Scubapro in the 1970s learned this lesson when the U.S. Navy evaluated their regulators, and the Scubapro Mk 2 out-performed the Scubapro Mk 5. Why? Because the Mark 2 hand a simple cap, with only one LP port, right in the top of the first stage cap, whereas the Mk 5 had a 90 degree turn for convenience for the two LP ports. In NEDU_1980, both the four-port and five port Scubapro Mk V regulators were evaluated. Now, if you'll look at all the Scubapro first stages (piston), you will find that there is one port which is directly in line with the outflow of the piston, in the top of the cap. For best performance, this port should be used for your primary second stage. A long hose, without any turns, is the best for performance as there is greater volume of air (requiring less pressure drop during inhalation), and no turbulence from turns in the air flow.

For the sport diver, under most conditions, this is not a concern. But if you are working hard, at depth, it could be a consideration. For instance, if you are cold (Pacific Northwest diving typically is in cold water), at a depth of say 50 feet, trying to lift a net to the surface, or a bag full of clams, then you will like all the air you can get. If you dive in rivers, with high current, you will want the best-performing regulator you can get.

I have dived Oregon rivers for many moons now, and have used many different regulators, including a large number of the double hose regulators and single hose regulators ever produced in the USA. (I have a fairly large collection.) I have seen a lot of design errors in these regulators, and know intimately the uses and limitations of these regulators. If you'll look at the one photo of me entering High Rocks below, you'll see (visually, it is easy to see in a river) the turbulence that occurs when a fluid turns 90 degrees.

One of my best-performing regulator, which I still dive, as a Scubapro Mk 5 (top of cap LP outlet)/A.I.R. I combination, which I used in the Winchester Dam Project in the 1980s. I have also investigated a few scuba fatalities, one of which involved a regulator which had not been well serviced and was breathing over 5 inches of water pressure, and the fellow was out-of-shape, trying to pull a bag of clams out of an Oregon estuary against a heavy current. So these small things, as Akimbo stated above, can come home to "bite" you.

SeaRat
John C. Ratliff, CSP, CIH(2006-2017), MSPH
 

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I always enjoy hearing credential being thrown around in lieu of facts. LOL.
 
I always enjoy hearing credential being thrown around in lieu of facts. LOL.
The credentials mean that I have passed exams you have not. As for the facts, look at the NEDU_1980 report.

SeaRat
 
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Now, since @John C. Ratliff couldn't be bothered to cite his own references, I'll do it for him
Evaluation of Commercially Available Open Circuit Scuba Regulators.

Here comes the fun part.
His argument about the MK2 vs Mk5 is completely irrelevant because it is a different regulator, BUT the reference he quoted makes it even better. In there, they did a DIRECT comparison of the MK5/109 on the side port against the bottom port. Same reg, same hose length, same everything, just with one coming out of the bottom, and the other coming out of the side.

4 port pressure drop at 75RMV at 99ft is about 18si, keep in mind this is 2.5cfm which is basically impossible for a diver to maintain for any length of time
for the 5 port, the pressure drop is about 35 psi
So the argument against a low pressure drop from the bottom port is invalidated by this report.

Either way, until there is proof shown about the swivels themselves, the data shown above does not validate the claims that were made
 
My point is, the credentials really don't matter, especially if they are being used to justify charts and tables and calculations that are not what is needed. There is a significant difference between drag/pressure-drop calculations for steady flow (like a duct) and intermittent, low-flow (like a reg). As far as I know, there are not handy-dandy charts for the unsteady-flow situation, because there are an infinity of possible unsteady flows. So, one resorts to experiments and measurements. I would suggest that the thousands of folks using elbows on their primaries are a pretty good experiment! I have never heard even one complaint about increased WOB and thus getting rid of the elbow.
 
I use a swivel at the 2nd stage and at the LP port as well. I have a very short primary hose as a solo diver and this setup doesn't exert any pull on my mouth/neck at all.

I also use a comfobite and install it upside down. The flange hangs on my lower teeth and I don't have to bite down hard at all. I just close my mouth and it stays in place.

I also notice no diffuclty in breathing down to 130'. The swivels make no discernable difference. The only time I have difficulty breathing is when I switch to a snorkel after surfacing. lol. I think I need a very large bore snorkel.
 
My point is, the credentials really don't matter, especially if they are being used to justify charts and tables and calculations that are not what is needed. There is a significant difference between drag/pressure-drop calculations for steady flow (like a duct) and intermittent, low-flow (like a reg). As far as I know, there are not handy-dandy charts for the unsteady-flow situation, because there are an infinity of possible unsteady flows. So, one resorts to experiments and measurements. I would suggest that the thousands of folks using elbows on their primaries are a pretty good experiment! I have never heard even one complaint about increased WOB and thus getting rid of the elbow.
Just out of curiosity, why then does Scubapro put a port on the top of the cap? Could this be the reason:
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.o...456789/3958/NEDU_1971_07letter.pdf?sequence=1

Yes, there is a difference between steady flow and unsteady-flow situations, but by citing the ACGIH elbow figure, I point out that any turn in air flow will induce some turbulence, and that will influence the flow. You can actually see that if you look at river flows. Where I dive on the Clackamas River, the river itself makes a 90 degree turn. There is a portion of the current which actually flows upstream, and then comes back in a circular manner downstream. In a like manner, whenever an air flow in a regulator makes a 90 degree turn, that will set up turbulence which will inhibit flow. Many of us use a splitter to make an octopus regulator. This works well, and I have had one on my Trieste II regulator since the 1970s. But, there is a slight sacrifice in flow whenever this is done, just as the 90 degree elbow. My only point is that there is some sacrifice in the regulator's performance whenever this is done.

SeaRat
 

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Just so you'll know, I have tried twice to upload the PDF of this report, rather than the link.

SeaRat

so where does your argument on the bottom port come in since the MK2 wasn't tested in that report, and the 4 port outperformed the 5 port?

WoB at 40rmv/132ft which we will refer to as "Frisky" because it is the extent of recreational depth limits, also the max gas density that the technical community largely accepts, and 40lpm is 1.4cfm SAC rate which is very high has a WoB of .14 on both the 4&5-port Mk V/109. To me that says that in even elevated workloads at what is considered the limit of recreational diving in terms of gas density, there is no appreciable difference in performance.

So where is your evidence that the claims are true?
 
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so where does your argument on the bottom port come in since the MK2 wasn't tested in that report, and the 4 port outperformed the 5 port?
Ya, it was the Mark I that was tested, but it also had the port on top. That was my mistake. But, and I don't have time to find the report right now, there have been subsequent EDU tests which validated the top port, I think using the Mark V (or later) and A.I.R. I regulator combination. My argument is also logical, as any turn in a flow will cause turbulence. So it seems that you are saying that the 90 degree turn causes no turbulence, and no impact on flow? Other than subjective impressions, what is your source on that?

SeaRat
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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