4th element undergarments?

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KevinNM

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I've found that in my Bare drysuit and the Bare SB base layer I can do a valve drill. With the SB midlayer on I can't reach the valves with one arm. I can't even touch the valve and I can get a solid grip with just the base layer. It was suggested that going to a 4th element undergarment would likely allow me to reach the valves without freezing my ass off, as they are supposed to be thinner, stretchier and still very warm.

Does this seem believable or should I just work at getting a suit that fits? The midlayer kept me warm when the suit flooded, which seems desirable in an undergarment, not sure how the 4th element would work there.
 
I have a similar issue with mobility, in my Santi BZ200 no problem, in my Santi BZ400 no way. It feels like I'm in a straight jacket fortunately I'm only a rec diver so ability to reach valve is a non issue in the main unless gross user error. I'm interested in what people recommend.
 
I just rectified this situation. I have a thin set of patagonia capilene 3 as a base layer and could reach my valves no problem. With arctic undergarments, I could reach my right valve fine, the left was almost impossible, maybe 2/10 on the first try.

There are a few different things that could be affecting your valves and you need to see which combination is causing the issue.
In my case, I am insanely head heavy in doubles I was using 3lbs in a trim pouch with Hollis F1s and was still face planting. So we moved the bands all the way up, used last hole on the plate, the usual. In the end, what happen was even though I was now in trim and stable I discovered I couldn't reach my valve when I switched undergarments later in the season.


I ended up adding 5lbs to the trim weight, moving the bands a hair down, and using the middle hole on the plate rather than the bottom hole. These changes (allowed by increasing the trim weight since all of them make you more head heavy) place the valve directly behind my ear and easy to reach in my CF200 with heavy undergarments.

The things you need to look at (in no particular order)


1. Tank Bands--You might need to adjust the bands and move them further down the tank thereby raising the position of the tank on your back. I had mine exactly at (or just a hair past) the break when I moved them down to correct my issue.

2. Harness Placement--Which hole are you using for your backplate? Using the bottom hole moves the tanks further up your back, using the top hole moves them further down.

3. Your straps on the harness are too loose or uneven causing the tank to fall too far down your back or just slightly too far onto one side. Make sure the straps are equal on both sides and not too loose. You should be able to get three fingers between you and your harness when wearing your drysuit and undergarments

4. Is your drysuit too smaller? This one can exist for some people who picked up used drysuits or gained a lot of weight. There is not much that can be done about this one, but since you can reach them with thinner undergarments I think there are other things we need to look at first.

It could be one of these factors or a combination of several. You will need to do few test dives and mix and match to find the combination that you like. You may also need a trim weight, but that is hard to say without seeing the setup directly and see you in the water to begin with.

---------- Post added October 9th, 2015 at 07:38 AM ----------

4th Element undergarments are top of the line and I love mine. That said, there are other issues to resolve before buying new undergarments--and I am not even sure that will fix the problem.
 
The problem with moving the bands is that I'll normally be renting someone else's tanks away from home, so requiring a unique special snowflake setup seems likely to lead to tears later. I worked with an instructor to get the harness set up for doubles, but I'll check in case it has shifted.

I'm suspicious that when I ordered the drysuit we didn't account for the undergarments. Since then I've read that you should always be measured in the heaviest undergarment you plan to use, but that wasn't how it was done. So I have a suit that fits pretty well as long as I use thinner undergarments than I really use.
 
The problem with moving the bands is that I'll normally be renting someone else's tanks away from home, so requiring a unique special snowflake setup seems likely to lead to tears later. I worked with an instructor to get the harness set up for doubles, but I'll check in case it has shifted.

I'm suspicious that when I ordered the drysuit we didn't account for the undergarments. Since then I've read that you should always be measured in the heaviest undergarment you plan to use, but that wasn't how it was done. So I have a suit that fits pretty well as long as I use thinner undergarments than I really use.

My issue exactly too. Although in my case I'm to blame, I asked for it to be cut for a particular under suit, having said that I did ask the manufacture prior to ordering thicker undergarment, same company, if I'd be ok and they said yes. Maybe they should have said no. I'm certainly warmer just can't move much.
 
The problem with moving the bands is that I'll normally be renting someone else's tanks away from home, so requiring a unique special snowflake setup seems likely to lead to tears later. I worked with an instructor to get the harness set up for doubles, but I'll check in case it has shifted.

I'm suspicious that when I ordered the drysuit we didn't account for the undergarments. Since then I've read that you should always be measured in the heaviest undergarment you plan to use, but that wasn't how it was done. So I have a suit that fits pretty well as long as I use thinner undergarments than I really use.

Moving bands can be done in under 5 minutes and only requires two adjustable wrenches (mine use 1/2inch, but pretty sure not all bands are the same). Depends on the op and situation, but I don't think they would mind. Assuming you know the tanks and manufacturer before hand and have experience with the tanks you could even tell the dive op I need the top band to be X inches from the break and they could do it for you. I don't have any experience renting doubles while on a trip, but any op that rents doubles, shouldn't have a problem with the request.
 
The problem with moving the bands is that I'll normally be renting someone else's tanks away from home, so requiring a unique special snowflake setup seems likely to lead to tears later. I worked with an instructor to get the harness set up for doubles, but I'll check in case it has shifted.

I'm suspicious that when I ordered the drysuit we didn't account for the undergarments. Since then I've read that you should always be measured in the heaviest undergarment you plan to use, but that wasn't how it was done. So I have a suit that fits pretty well as long as I use thinner undergarments than I really use.


Kevin,
From what you've said it sounds as if it's the suit causing the problem. What sort of 4th Element stuff have you got in mind? Arctics?

If it's Arctics then they are less bulky and that would help you but I think in the longer term I think you'd be better off fixing the suit. I know that's an expensive fix but everything else is a bit of a kludge. If you are thinking of replacing the suit maybe have a word with a tech instructor in person to confirm it.

It sounds to me that you don't have enough room under the armpits to move around in and while the Arctics might give you some additional movement they might not be warm enough - that of course depends on how much you feel the cold and the conditions you are diving in.
 
I've got the 4th Element Halo undergarment. I don't find it to be that warm compared to the layers of fleece/polypropylene that I wore before.

And then I had a flood. And stayed warm. Worth every penny. I still add layers underneath it (first layer is Columbia Sportwear's Omniheat shirt) and a couple of polypropylene and one layer of fleece (just less than before). That keeps me warm in the Puget Sound.
 

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