3-Day Open Water Certification?

[flots am]

So, if I make a new agency that requires three years of instruction, 200 hours of classroom work, and 150 dives in order to get OW certified, would you agree that my OW divers will be better than any other agency's OW divers?

I have no idea.

However I will say that any OW diver that has had the lessons spread out over several weeks and 16-24 hours of pool time spread out over a similar period is going to be a better diver than a the same person person who had one long pool session then went out for OW dives the next day.

It's a question of whether the point of the class is long-term competency or just the ability to check the boxes on a few forms.

flots.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

This is foolish logic.

Diver A does a 3 day course. Diver B does an 8 week course. Diver B is going to be the better diver as of the day they finish their course.

It is a constant that any diver will benefit from diving frequently after training. Repeating this gem of common sense doesn't do anything to make Diver A competently trained.

Foolish logic, you're spending 2 hours a week with the instructor, for 8 weeks, nothing in between, as opposed to someone that's possibly been diving every weekend for 8 weeks. but you would be the better diver in the end?? ummm okay. you are not learning anything different, not spending any more time in class and pool sessions than diver A, you're just taking longer. while diver A is out diving in real situations.

 

[rocdoc]

I have been following this with interest, as a recently certified diver. I will of course defer to those with the appropriate qualifications and experience on what is appropriate for training, but having observed HUGE differences between the skills of people getting their certification together with me, I will dare second the opinion that it is extremely person-dependent. Any course, whether diving, learning to play chess, or taking the neurosurgery rotation in medical school, is a platform on which YOU learn, not a vehicle for someone to put knowledge and skills into you. Would a week long slow and thorough training be better than a 2-day one? Absolutely! Can someone go through the slow detailed version and come out the other end knowing less than the person having done the rushed 2-day version? Absolutely!
I got my own certification with a "fast track" type of shop, where it was clear the priority was to churn out divers and collect payments. But I really studied the book on my own, took extra time with skills, when swimming to descent sites I put my head under and used my compass to get there instead of swimming on my back, when my octo was leaking I asked for a tool and fixed it myself (under the instructor's supervision) instead of giving it to them and walking away etc. etc. When I then did the advanced open water, I found that I was more confident and frankly knew a ton more than divers with a lot more logged dives and a lot longer training programs. Sure, I would have done better with a longer training program, but that won't stop me from getting better. And most importantly, I understand that having a signed piece of paper saying I am certified in this and that does not mean that I am now free to do said this and that safely any time anywhere. One will need to keep learning for the rest of one's life, in all likelihood, I sure plan to, and I wouldn't dream of pushing my limits or even approaching any dive without a healthy level of circumspection and expectation that there will definitely be something to learn from it, and there may always be something unexpected or something that could potentially go wrong.
So I think that the generalizations on the shop someone got certified with, the duration of the program etc. are not very useful. Get the most out of the training and grow from there.

 

[Bob DBF]

Foolish logic, you're spending 2 hours a week with the instructor, for 8 weeks, nothing in between, as opposed to someone that's possibly been diving every weekend for 8 weeks. but you would be the better diver in the end?? ummm okay. you are not learning anything different, not spending any more time in class and pool sessions than diver A, you're just taking longer. while diver A is out diving in real situations.

Depends...

My 8 week class was at least 3 hours on Thursday nights discussing homework, testing, discussing the upcoming pool and / or OW dives, debriefing the past pool and / or OW dives, answering questions, and discussing diving in general. Three to four hours in the pool on Saturdays for 6 weeks and the last 3 or 4 Sundays, all day, at the ocean with shore, kelp, and boat dives. We did freediving as well as 5 or 6 tank dives, one of which was after certification but monitored. It was a NAUI / PADI class in NorCal 1980. The instructor had time to work with each student on any issues and, in my case (I had been diving for years), insured that I took the class seriously by holding me to a much higher standard of knowledge and performance than the new divers for my certification (probably not acceptable now with PADI).

The instructor that will certify a diver in three days may not have any more knowledge to impart to that diver if he had 8 weeks, but that that is a sign of poor over-site of the Agency and what they require of a certification, whether OW or instructor. I know a number of instructors on this board who could use that 8 weeks with a student to great advantage.

I realize that times change, but some assume that the change is always for the better.



Bob
--------------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have had no complaints about my 6-8 week class. By the time we finish between classroom and pool it's closer to 40 hours. Throw in two 8 hour days for checkouts and I get a lot of skills and knowledge passed on to the student. Students that I happily would let my kid dive with the next weekend while I stayed home. Knowing that the student could handle most things that could come up. Also there has been reference to people certed to dive in conditions similar to what they trained in. If that's the case then they did not meet RSTC standards. No where is that phrase which is used as an excuse for substandard training found in the RSTC guidelines for an OW diver. That came about as a result of shorter courses with less content that was a result of greed. An OW diver should have the knowledge and skills for any ow level dive. Including knowing how to decide if the dive is too much for their experience level at that time.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I have had no complaints about my 6-8 week class. By the time we finish between classroom and pool it's closer to 40 hours. Throw in two 8 hour days for checkouts and I get a lot of skills and knowledge passed on to the student. Students that I happily would let my kid dive with the next weekend while I stayed home. Knowing that the student could handle most things that could come up. Also there has been reference to people certed to dive in conditions similar to what they trained in. If that's the case then they did not meet RSTC standards. No where is that phrase which is used as an excuse for substandard training found in the RSTC guidelines for an OW diver. That came about as a result of shorter courses with less content that was a result of greed. An OW diver should have the knowledge and skills for any ow level dive. Including knowing how to decide if the dive is too much for their experience level at that time.

It's not about complaints about how long the class is, it's about some people thinking their way is the best way, and if it's not done that way then it's wrong. Like I said before I did my class, I wasn't looking at agencies (didn't know anything about the agencies), but the classes, what they offered and the convenience for me and my work schedule. the 8 week classes didn't offer any more than the 3 day class. Also I would hope if you certified them that you would feel comfortable with them diving with your kid. cause if you didn't that would say a lot about you, not their abilities. The dive shop where I had my training doesn't pass every one that comes through. When I did my swim/float test I could stay about water for 10 mins, when I did a month later, I had to 20 instead of the 10 that were required. I nor anyone in my class had a problem with any of the other skills. Now I could be wrong, but there are somethings that until you experience them first hand no amount of training/talking about it will help you deal with it.


Bob DBF your classes worked out great for you, but they would not work for me.

 

[boulderjohn]

My 8 week class was at least 3 hours on Thursday nights discussing homework, testing, discussing the upcoming pool and / or OW dives, debriefing the past pool and / or OW dives, answering questions, and discussing diving in general. Three to four hours in the pool on Saturdays for 6 weeks and the last 3 or 4 Sundays, all day, at the ocean with shore, kelp, and boat dives. We did freediving as well as 5 or 6 tank dives, one of which was after certification but monitored. It was a NAUI / PADI class in NorCal 1980. The instructor had time to work with each student on any issues and, in my case (I had been diving for years), insured that I took the class seriously by holding me to a much higher standard of knowledge and performance than the new divers for my certification (probably not acceptable now with PADI).

You do realize that in totaling the time for your class you are including all the time for the lectures and methods used to convey information to you and when computing the time for the fast class you are not including the home study time in which the student uses a variety of media to learn that before coming to class, don't you?

 

[Tony387]

ScubaSteve...If convenience is the most important thing, then by all means...a three day course is for you. If you want exposure, time to learn and practice your skills, and quality classroom time, then a 3 day cert class would be very disappointing. Its the difference between taking a summer class and taking the same course over two semesters during the year. What you're asserting is that a longer course is unnecessary because the sooner you get in the water and start diving, the better diver you will be. That is only true if one ignores the inherent risks involved. Being prepared to learn to dive, before the actual diving makes all the difference. Three day cert courses have one goal...to certify as many as possible, as quickly as possible. That's beyond dispute. I would also reconsider the urge to argue with Jim and Bob about dive training...I think they've been doing this a while.

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[ScubaSteve1962]

ScubaSteve...If convenience is the most important thing, then by all means...a three day course is for you. If you want exposure, time to learn and practice your skills, and quality classroom time, then a 3 day cert class would be very disappointing. Its the difference between taking a summer class and taking the same course over two semesters during the year. What you're asserting is that a longer course is unnecessary because the sooner you get in the water and start diving, the better diver you will be. That is only true if one ignores the inherent risks involved. Being prepared to learn to dive, before the actual diving makes all the difference. Three day cert courses have one goal...to certify as many as possible, as quickly as possible. That's beyond dispute. I would also reconsider the urge to argue with Jim and Bob about dive training...I think they've been doing this a while.

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Working in a field where I've seen people get hurt, or killed using the same term, "I've been doing it this way for 30 years" doesn't mean it's always the only way, or the right way. there is nothing wrong with the way they do it, but there are some who think that's the only way to do it, and if anybody does it a different way then they are not good responsible divers because they didn't get proper training. And I'm not speaking of Jim or Bob.

When you have a job that pays the bills, and you are pursing something as hobby, yes it is about convenience. I could not attend a class for 3 hours every thurs night, I could not attend a pool session every sat for 8 weeks. as I said my schedule would not permit it. The 3 day course does not work for everyone, but for a lot of us it does. What I was trying to let the OP know is that it can work, but you have to really apply yourself and be focused.

My LDS is not in business to certify as many as possible, he may do 4 classes a year, he has told some that he could not certify them it's not about the numbers with everyone. Unless you have had the book, and done ALL the knowledge base test at least a month before the class he will not let you attend the class. Some people can grasp material in a summer course as opposed to 2 semesters, everyone doesn't learn the same way. Had plenty of time for exposure and to practice my skills, the pool is open to anyone after completing the OW skills session, if you're serious you will learn and practice your skills, do you need an instructor watching you until you get certified?

 

[EFX]

What Jim isn't telling you is that he is rolling buoyancy and probably low viz/night into his OW class. Yeah! It better be a 6-8 week course. I have those skills by taking the PADI specialty route. Are Jim's certified divers more skillfull than your average 3-day certed diver? I hope so. But, not all divers want or need this level of proficiency. I have a friend who got his OW through a 3-day resort class and he is doing just fine. When I urge him to get his AOW he laughs and says, "Hey, I don't want to be a friggin' astronaut I just want to see the stupid fish".