I realize that we have a 'stylistic variance' in tank placement. That being said, I do not understand why any wreck or ow deco diver would clip off any 'planned' breathing gas to the anchor line. If the boat breaks loose so does your gas. I also am aware that you carry 'contingency' tables, however, two problems are now created by your placement of the bottle where there would be only one (boat braking loose) had the gas not been clipped to the anchor line.
2nd Deco Bottle
- Thread starter WreckWriter
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OP
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I went with the 50% based on recommendations received here and elsewhere.
As to suicide clips, I would not dive with one anywhere on my body or my gear. They are called that for a reason....
Tom
As to suicide clips, I would not dive with one anywhere on my body or my gear. They are called that for a reason....
Tom
I do nothing by feel, color, taste or postion (I can just see the posts about colored regs and cherry flavored mouthpieces). All equipment including the clips are similiar to facilitate muscle memory and reaction time..etc. Each time you switch gas you verify the MOD on the tank and follow the reg on the tank you just verified up to your mouth. With hand on the tank crack the valve and then turn off quickly. Place reg in mouth suck down a small breath and watch the gauge drop and then crank the knob open wide...you are on the right bottle....no colors, no different snaps...no wondering..am I on the right bottle...period, end of story. ALWAYS verify mod and the reg in your mouth and park unused regs on the stage or deco bottle where they belong....this time 'house keeping' will save your life.
aue-mike
Contributor
As Tom mentioned, suicide clips earned their moniker for a reason. They easily clip onto other things, in many cases unintentionally and at very unexpected times. This includes mandatory gear as well as extraneous gear such as cameras, etc.
We had a guy with a video camera with one suicide clip on it, along with a regular bolt snap on the other side. We told him that should be replaced. He said he wanted the ability to clip the camera off fast if needed. On one dive we had to drift into our shotline due to the current. When he hit the line it slipped into his clip and ended up flipping him up over the line and the current pinned him in position almost upside down. Not good. He was unable to free himself due to the strength of the current and the position of the camera/clip close to his body, and had to wait for one of his buddies to work him loose. Hopefully, use of a suicide clip will simply lead to an annoying situation that can be resolved and not a potentially life-threatening situation, which can very easily happen in short order. Don't try to fix a most-likely very unrealistic situation (unable to identify bottles by sight?) by creating another potential problem.
I have never really understood the need for a designated "travel gas." That is just another layer of complexity that is totally unecessary.
If you need to avoid breathing backgas directly from the surface (if you are diving much past 300fsw and you need to work to get to the anchor line), simply use your decompression gas -- you should have plenty to go around. Other than that, it really is not a realistic problem. Technical diving is not about taking as much gear with you as possible, it is about using technology to your benefit to reduce risks, etc. That said, take as little gear as you need and use it to its maximum benefit. Why take an extra bottle for only a minute or two of use, when you can use your decompression gas to get to a "safe" depth if need be? All this being said, it is my humble, but personal opinion that too many people are too paranoid about hypoxic mixes. How long does it take you to get to 10-20fsw?? Many times this is accomplished just by falling off the boat. Just don't sit on the boat huffing on your regulator.
Never, ever leave your deco gas on the surface or the boat. That can lead to many more problems than solutions. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.
Regards,
Mike
We had a guy with a video camera with one suicide clip on it, along with a regular bolt snap on the other side. We told him that should be replaced. He said he wanted the ability to clip the camera off fast if needed. On one dive we had to drift into our shotline due to the current. When he hit the line it slipped into his clip and ended up flipping him up over the line and the current pinned him in position almost upside down. Not good. He was unable to free himself due to the strength of the current and the position of the camera/clip close to his body, and had to wait for one of his buddies to work him loose. Hopefully, use of a suicide clip will simply lead to an annoying situation that can be resolved and not a potentially life-threatening situation, which can very easily happen in short order. Don't try to fix a most-likely very unrealistic situation (unable to identify bottles by sight?) by creating another potential problem.
I have never really understood the need for a designated "travel gas." That is just another layer of complexity that is totally unecessary.
If you need to avoid breathing backgas directly from the surface (if you are diving much past 300fsw and you need to work to get to the anchor line), simply use your decompression gas -- you should have plenty to go around. Other than that, it really is not a realistic problem. Technical diving is not about taking as much gear with you as possible, it is about using technology to your benefit to reduce risks, etc. That said, take as little gear as you need and use it to its maximum benefit. Why take an extra bottle for only a minute or two of use, when you can use your decompression gas to get to a "safe" depth if need be? All this being said, it is my humble, but personal opinion that too many people are too paranoid about hypoxic mixes. How long does it take you to get to 10-20fsw?? Many times this is accomplished just by falling off the boat. Just don't sit on the boat huffing on your regulator.
Never, ever leave your deco gas on the surface or the boat. That can lead to many more problems than solutions. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.
Regards,
Mike
OP
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As I recall the death of John Ormsby in Gimbel's Hole on the Doria is generally attributed to a suicide clip catching a cable. That alone is reason enough for me to stay away from them!
As for travel mix, I've always heard that 16% O2 is the lowest that will sustain you at the surface. Is this accurate?
Tom
ps- Thanks for the recommendation the other day. I heard back from Mike R. today.
I dont usually carry the o2 with me because its useless at depth.. at least in an emergency I can hit the 50% at 100fsw assuming I am ascending.. SInce my tables are built PRIMARILY for 50% the o2 is not a needed gas, My second tables are there if everything goes fine andI'll switch to o2 at 20fsw. I have been diving wrecks about 14 years now and only once was I unable to go up the anchor line(when planned)... The method primarily used in the NE its unlikely the boat will break free since the mate generally CHAINS into the wreck but I'll admit it can happen. If I'm diving in a location where it is likely (or planned) that no anchorline or moring will be available then I'll carry all my gasses. I believe in evaluating my rigging based on the circumstances. SInce I don't rig my light DIR style I like having a cylinder on each side when diving with 2 sling bottles or more.. Mike your point about deco gas on decent is well taken and I cant disagree with it..
My main reason for a travel gas (on dives where it is reasonable)is that I don't use tanks larger than steel 95s (so I rather preserve my bottom gas- its available if a problems occurs on ascent, but I don't want to have it limit me for normal dive planning or if I have difficulties equalizing, I occasionally have problems with 1 ear that I injured several years ago due to stupdity..)mainly because of my back,plus I dislike the longer tanks. Carrying stages makes life easier I can remove or attach them while I'm in the water instead of dealing with the greater weight all the time.
My back is the main reason I switched to a RB for most dives, its only 65 lbs and I'll usually carry 1 or 2 40s as bailout..
Much lighter than twin 95s plus sling bottles..
Scubaroo
Contributor
WreckWriter,
Here's a table showing different oxygen percentages and the corresponding physiological responses.
21 %
Breathing easiest
19.5 %
Minimum required by law
17 %
Breathing faster and deeper, possible impaired judgement
16 %
First signs of anoxia or hypoxia occur
15 %
Dizziness, buzzing in ears, headache, blurred vision, rapid breathing
12 % to 16 %
Rapid breathing and pulse, impaired muscular coordination
10 % to 12 %
Emotional upset and abnormal fatigue on exertion
6 % to 10 %
Nausea and vomiting, inability to move, unconsciousness
< 6 %
Convulsive movements, gasping respiration, breathing ceases, cardiac arrest occurs
Not sure where the "Minimum required by law" comes from - probably refers to minimum oxygen content for a mine, as I think this is what the context of the table is in.
Here's a table showing different oxygen percentages and the corresponding physiological responses.
21 %
Breathing easiest
19.5 %
Minimum required by law
17 %
Breathing faster and deeper, possible impaired judgement
16 %
First signs of anoxia or hypoxia occur
15 %
Dizziness, buzzing in ears, headache, blurred vision, rapid breathing
12 % to 16 %
Rapid breathing and pulse, impaired muscular coordination
10 % to 12 %
Emotional upset and abnormal fatigue on exertion
6 % to 10 %
Nausea and vomiting, inability to move, unconsciousness
< 6 %
Convulsive movements, gasping respiration, breathing ceases, cardiac arrest occurs
Not sure where the "Minimum required by law" comes from - probably refers to minimum oxygen content for a mine, as I think this is what the context of the table is in.
As Uncle Pug would say, I let the bait dangle and the crowd took the hook.
The best way to drive a point home is to take the opposite view and watch from a distance.
Who would dive with a clip known as "suicide"?
The best way to drive a point home is to take the opposite view and watch from a distance.
Who would dive with a clip known as "suicide"?
Who would dive with a "suicide" clip on a wreck? That was supposed to be the question. I use them in caves often, but not in OW.
Man this is starting to look bipolar to me:
DS:
Who would dive with a clip known as "suicide"?
Then
DS:
Who would dive with a "suicide" clip on a wreck? That was supposed to be the question. I use them in caves often, but not in OW.
DS: As Uncle Pug would say, I let the bait dangle and the crowd took the hook.
So what's the point? Are we stupid for trying to help you out? Slightly annoyed with the assertion that you were 'baiting' us but then mention that you use and that it is ok to have those clips in a cave. What kind of logic is that...not good enough for wreck so I'll use em in the cave? Do you have two separate o2 bottles rigged differently? Does the inconsistency in gear ever make you wonder why the performance curve is so steep as you transition environments? BTW the bipolar thing was a joke.
More to the point you either have a logical and defensible system or you don't. By no means am I a believer that you will surely 'die' if you do things such as use suicide clips but mike already outlined one instance for you that a different approach would have fended off.
DS:
Who would dive with a clip known as "suicide"?
Then
DS:
Who would dive with a "suicide" clip on a wreck? That was supposed to be the question. I use them in caves often, but not in OW.
DS: As Uncle Pug would say, I let the bait dangle and the crowd took the hook.
So what's the point? Are we stupid for trying to help you out? Slightly annoyed with the assertion that you were 'baiting' us but then mention that you use and that it is ok to have those clips in a cave. What kind of logic is that...not good enough for wreck so I'll use em in the cave? Do you have two separate o2 bottles rigged differently? Does the inconsistency in gear ever make you wonder why the performance curve is so steep as you transition environments? BTW the bipolar thing was a joke.
More to the point you either have a logical and defensible system or you don't. By no means am I a believer that you will surely 'die' if you do things such as use suicide clips but mike already outlined one instance for you that a different approach would have fended off.
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