2 Finnish divers dead, 3 injured in Plurdalen / Norway

[vincent54]

I am familiar with the Cis-Lunar scrubber because for all intensive purposes I use a copy.

In 20C water at shallow depths it can last and has been used to 11 hours (my copy scrubber).

6 hours in recreational dives (i.e. max depth 30 meter) 20C water, done and no problem.

4C for a little shorter than 3.5 hours at 40 meters, no problem.

In 4C waters at 129 meters for 5 hours total planned dive my personal opinion is that absent some tests actually done to verify and confirm the dependability of the scrubber under those conditions, then based on what we know about the best scrubber out there, the dive was a suicide mission.

It would be interesting to know what rebreather they were using and which scrubber exactly, and indeed if the dive was planned to be carried out on more than 1 rebreather and which.

However, let us say that they chose to use 2 rebreathers in sequence/series to obviate the limitation of the scrubber of using a single rebreather, then a single rebreather failure, that is a one failure of either one of the two rebreathers, would have compromised the safety of the divers.

Given the depth and complexity, it is unlikely the team would have had each enough gas to bail-out from a rebreather failure.

This means they would have used "Team Gas Sharing" bail-out strategy, which means if two rebreathers failed (not a low probability event in a cave at 129 meters in 4C water), then there would not have been enough gas for all to survive (as was the case).

Based on the information available, this was a suicide mission and the fact that 3 of the 5 survived is no reason to excuse and aggrandise or justify this type of diving.

You might not have a copy of the Cis-lunar unit. It has the capacity to have the scrubber changed in the water so you can extend the dive time.
So there is rebreather equipment that can handle a dive like this. I don't know their dive equipment or plan, but they must have thought they were capable.

It looks like the dive needs a lot of planning, staging and money to succeed. Tragic and feel bad for the families involved.

 

[gianaameri]

You might not have a copy of the Cis-lunar unit. It has the capacity to have the scrubber changed in the water so you can extend the dive time.
So there is rebreather equipment that can handle a dive like this. I don't know their dive equipment or plan, but they must have thought they were capable.

It looks like the dive needs a lot of planning, staging and money to succeed. Tragic and feel bad for the families involved.

No there is not rebreather equipment that can safely handle a dive like this.

To even think that you can open a rebreather at or as part of a 129 meters dive in a cave in 4C water and change the scrubber is just lunacy.

 

[htr]

There was some report from apparently different group from last year describing the same location:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f50t92q7ujubhz/Diving Project Plurdalen 2013.pdf

Cave diving - pics, movies, links, info, other. - Forumul pasionatilor de scufundari

 

[vincent54]

No there is not rebreather equipment that can safely handle a dive like this.

To even think that you can open a rebreather at or as part of a 129 meters dive in a cave in 4C water and change the scrubber is just lunacy.

Any equipment at that depth would be considered not the safest. The Cis-lunar systems were designed with this type of diving in mind. Complete self sufficiency and redundancy. In fact they even made a dual set-up (R model) for extended penetration into cave systems. I'm not advocating a dive like this, but to say no rebreather exists that is safe for this dive is incorrect. Some say any diving in caves is lunacy, but there are people who dare to explore. It's their decision.
The fact that you haven't been able to test for yourself the performance of a specific rebreather doesn't mean a thing. Divers have varying degrees of competence and changing a scrubber, if necessary, might not be hard for some of them.Tough conditions, but the dive is possible.

It will be done in the future, on a rebreather, and successfully. No doubt about it.

 

[Subcooled]

A guy got stuck in a squeeze 110m down. For sure, that is not a relaxing event. One can only imagine the stress of the diver, while he tried to free himself. It is obvious that at some point a lot of inefficient work has been done, and CO2 -levels have been high. Is this really a plain scrubber issue or a getting stuck at depth issue? At 110m CO2 must have been a serious issue. I am not a deep diver, so what would I know...

 

[gianaameri]

A guy got stuck in a squeeze 110m down. For sure, that is not a relaxing event. One can only imagine the stress of the diver, while he tried to free himself. It is obvious that at some point a lot of inefficient work has been done, and CO2 -levels have been high. Is this really a plain scrubber issue or a getting stuck at depth issue? At 110m CO2 must have been a serious issue. I am not a deep diver, so what would I know...

You have two rebreathers and a failure both at the same depth (very deep) and point of the dive in cold water and this leading to two fatalities:

"...maximum depth of 129 meters, the team started to ascend. Diver-2 gets stuck in a restriction at about 110 meters. Despite every effort, diver-2 can’t get out, and faces simultaneously problems with the rebreather. Diver-1 tries in every way to help, but despite these efforts, diver-2 dies at the restriction."

"...At the same time, diver-4 has faced difficulties with the rebreather, and has started using the bail-out gas. Diver-5 tries to help diver-4, but diver-4 dies at a depth of 111 meters."

It points (hypothesis not fact) to a scrubber CO2 issue (which is debilitating/incapacitating). The rebreathers were probably totally unsuitable for a 4C dive at 129 meters (in a cave and an ice dive as well!!!).

We will never know for sure because as in all rebreather fatalities where CO2 or O2 is involved the autopsies are inconclusive because we all die of hypoxia and a bit of hypercapnia.

 

[alewar]

Here is a picture of one of the deceased. Perhaps someone can identify the rebreather.

 

[Piipin]

I noticed that this close up picture is totally different time and he might have different unit on this trip.


Lähetetty minun SM-T210 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

 

[agesilaus]

There was some report from apparently different group from last year describing the same location: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f50t92q7ujubhz/Diving Project Plurdalen 2013.pdf Cave diving - pics, movies, links, info, other. - Forumul pasionatilor de scufundari

That report makes the other reports even stranger. First they installed a diver rest air bubble at 500 m into the cave. So that would cut down the distance traveled to the end of the line. And later they say that they connected the two caves systems which was apparently their goal of these mapping expeditions. If I read it right that happened in 2013. So if the two caves are connected why was that line being pushed further? And the report above says there were several groups involved in the mapping. Maybe they were all Norwegian and they just don't like Finns. Tho one of the complaints seems to be that the Finns didn't map the extension that they pushed.

 

[wedivebc]

Aren't the posted run times on the CIS based on using lithium hydroxide scrubber as well? Better hope the hydrophobic membrane works :O

I am familiar with the Cis-Lunar scrubber because for all intensive purposes I use a copy.

In 20C water at shallow depths it can last and has been used to 11 hours (my copy scrubber).

6 hours in recreational dives (i.e. max depth 30 meter) 20C water, done and no problem.

4C for a little shorter than 3.5 hours at 40 meters, no problem.

In 4C waters at 129 meters for 5 hours total planned dive my personal opinion is that absent some tests actually done to verify and confirm the dependability of the scrubber under those conditions, then based on what we know about the best scrubber out there, the dive was a suicide mission.

It would be interesting to know what rebreather they were using and which scrubber exactly, and indeed if the dive was planned to be carried out on more than 1 rebreather and which.

However, let us say that they chose to use 2 rebreathers in sequence/series to obviate the limitation of the scrubber of using a single rebreather, then a single rebreather failure, that is a one failure of either one of the two rebreathers, would have compromised the safety of the divers.

Given the depth and complexity, it is unlikely the team would have had each enough gas to bail-out from a rebreather failure.

This means they would have used "Team Gas Sharing" bail-out strategy, which means if two rebreathers failed (not a low probability event in a cave at 129 meters in 4C water), then there would not have been enough gas for all to survive (as was the case).

Based on the information available, this was a suicide mission and the fact that 3 of the 5 survived is no reason to excuse and aggrandise or justify this type of diving.