I own both, The MMII is no "eaisier" to use than the NickV
Both have the same controlls. The Nickonos Vs controlls are much better made and eiasier to adjust underwater. Here is a series of old posts on this subject:
Below are some excerpts from some recent posts on the pros and cons of each system:
(MMII Vs Nikonos)
This of course depends on how serious you want to get about your pictures. Are you diving to take pictures, or are you taking pictures while you dive? If you diving to take pictures having a camera that you can change lens U/W isn't a big deal. You more than likely plan to take a specific type of photo (wide, macro, etc.) and plan the dive to accommodate. This allows you to concentrate on specific equipment setup, configuration, and operation, for a specific goal. For this purpose the Nikonos is a much better camera, it offers higher quality, and flexibility of set up. Plus there are more quality accessories available for the Nikonos than any other U/W system.
If on the other hand your main purpose is to dive, and try to get some good photos while you are at it, then the MM II is a very good choice. As others have stated you can change lens U/W. There is a loss of quality, for this (U/W) flexibility. Yes you can take some fantastic pictures with this camera, but the overall quality and versatility is not as good as the Nikonos. The price however is a less than the Nikonos (but not 1/3 the price). This is based on a firsthand comparison, as I own both cameras. I will say this, I know quite a few divers that have moved up from a Motormarine to a Nikonos (Myself included), I don't know anyone that has gone from a Nikonos to a Motormarine.
Lastly, to respond to PattyG's post:
>>>My husband had a Nikonos V, and he had to choose the lens configuration before
>> getting wet. I am not familiar with any lenses that can be changed underwater
>> on a Nikonos. Maybe on a housed Nikon camera?
Yes the Nikonos close up kit can be removed U/W. It is an add on lens kit that comes with three different size framers. The size of framer you use is dependent on what lens the kit is mounted on (the standard 35, the 80mm, and the 28mm). The extension tube set however must be installed before getting wet.
>> I went with a MMIIEX for a few basic reasons:
>> 1. It only has 2 o-rings on the camera (fewer places to flood)
Actually they both have about the same number of o-rings, the MMII has fewer "user" acccessable o-rings. Every opening into the case has an o-ring or seal. This includes the battery compartment, primary lens (whether it's removable or not), rewind lever, strobe port, aperture knob, focus knob (the aperture and focus are on the lens and not through the case on the Nikonos), shutter release, and anything else that goes through the body or case. In fact the way I count them there are more case seals in the MMII Ex than the Nikonos. All these o-rings or seals need to be checked on a routine basis. If they are not user accessible, than it must be done by a qualified repair shop. Note: I have two MMIIs both have been flooded once. I have 1 Nikonos V, more dives on the Nikonos, never been flooded.
>> 2. Is about 1/3 the price of a Nikonos
B&H sells the MMII EX $555.99 and the Nikonos V with a 35mm F2.5 lens for $859.99 1/3 the price? More like 1/3 less. Big difference.
>> 3. Can be maintained and fixed at a fair price
It doesn't cost any more for the fresh water soak or o-ring lube from one camera to the other. If you look around you'll find service cost to be comparable. Repair depends on what is getting fixed. If it's flood repair the MMIIs repair may be more expensive than necessary. The standard flood repair is to replace the electronics module, which is basically the whole inside of the camera. I paid for just the module, not the labor (good friends with the tech) was about half the price of the camera.
>> 4. Can be used above water
So can the Nikons
>> Basically, I'm cheap, and want to take pictures for fun, not to publish. The
>> Nikonos involves a lot of maintenance, and I'm not that committed to it.
The Nokonos requires no more maintenance than the Motormarine. If your not spending the same amount of time on you MMII than you would with a Nikonos your asking for it. In fact after flooding two MMIIs I spend more time inspecting the MMIIs than I do the Nikonos.
>> I think I get some pretty good shots with it....
No argument there, Great Pics! I have seen that some are just naturals, and can take a good picture with a rock, while others can only get mediocre pic's with the most expensive equipment available. All things being equal though, you'll get better quality photos with better quality equipment.
Bottom line, the Nik V is a much better camera (than the MM) in all areas. Optical quality (the most important aspect) being far superior to the MM. Will the MM take good pictures? Yes But all thing being equal, can it take as good a picture as the Nik V? No.
I have stated this before, there are those that can take a good picture with a rock, while others can only get mediocre pic's with the most expensive equipment available. All things being equal though, you'll get better quality photos with better quality equipment. And the Nik V is a better quality camera than the MMII EX. Look what Leonardo Da Vinci did with the tools available to him. Can you imagine what he could do with the tools available today?
Nic Vs hold their value, kinda' like Harleys. Also as stated above, if you don't know how to take good pictures, you'll take lousy pictures with a great camera. Many people buy expensive cameras (not just underwater) and find they still take lousy pictures. They expect the equipment to overcome their inadequacies, (they don't know *how* to take a good picture), they get discouraged and sell them. I have seen this many times. Whatever camera you are using, a point and shoot or a housed system. Learn and practice some basic UW photography techniques (there are plenty of books and web sites dedicated to UW photo), learn your camera, and shoot some film.
Rooster
Hey PattyG
Didn't intend to flame, was just trying to give DiverDave my first hand knowledge about both cameras. But, again, to give DiverDave my perspective, I'll respond to you comments.
>> I got a MMIIEX with a strobe for $800. Are you saying a Nikonos V is only $859?
>> Is this just the housing? If you're talking about a complete camera, they sure
>> have come down in price!
You got a good deal on you camera, (I actually only paid $550 for my first MMII and strobe, but that was 9 years ago), but to be fair you need to look at what is available to most people. I quoted the B&H current catalog price. Look on the net or in the back of the dive rags and you'll find that yes the MMIIs are cheaper than the Nikonos, but not as cheap as you claim, not 1/3 the price. Of course good deals can always be found if you look hard enough, or are at the right place at the right time. I live out on Guam where everything is expensive but I bought a new Nikonos V with a 35 MM lens and an SB-103 (yes I still have the 103 and have not sent it in for the 105) flash kit Including arm tray and synch cord for $950. That's $150 more than your set up for a better camera and a more powerful strobe. Actually I paid $450 for the camera and about six months later got the strobe kit for $500.
>> You are one of the very few people I know who has not flooded a Nikonos. The
>> underwater camera shop I deal with in SF (Camera Tech) says maintenance on
>> the Nikonos must be done more frequently, since you are dealing with a metal
>> housing. Ask OC.....metal and salt water don't mix!
Actually I know quite a few people that have not flooded their Nikonos, but I also know some that have. I also know people that have, and have not, flooded their MMII. Yes I know, quite well, about metal and salt water, I live on Guam, and here everything rusts or corrodes, even if you try to take care of it. I also spent 21 years in the Air Force as an Aircraft Metals technologist, heat-treating, plating, welding, machining, corrosion control, and many other aspects of the manufacture and repair of aircraft parts made out of many types of high tech aircraft metals. Yes metal and salt water can be a problem, but so can plastic and salt water. I have one of my MMII currently apart in a million pieces, (this is the second one I flooded, more of a slight leak than a flood). You can see the wear caused by the salt water or grit (salt crystals) on the housing. The worst place is where the aperture and focus knobs come through the housing (these knobs are moved often). This is where I suspect the leak occurred. This is also a place where the user cannot service the seals. Again as I said above, if you are not taking care of you MMII as well as you think you should take care of a Nikonos you are in for trouble. One camera does not need any more care than the other. Of course a camera repair shop would want you to bring your camera in after every dive if they could get you to ;-}
>> Accessories for the Nikonos are WAY more expensive than for the MM. My set-up
>> includes the camera, one strobe, a 16mm wide angle lens, 2:1 macro set-up, and
>> an optical viewfinder. Add that up, and I get about $1400. Question for you
>> Rooster: what's the cost of that set-up for a Nikonos?
First I think most people would find it hard to get all the accessories that you list for $450, again that is not msrp. But like I said you can find great deals if you look. And I do look. Yes accessories for the Nikonos are more expensive, but not all are WAY more expensive. They are higher quality, especially when it comes to lenses. Yes the Nikon wide-angle lenses are very expensive, but they are the best on the market. You can however buy a Sea and Sea 16mm wide-angle conversion lens (for the Nikonos) for $343 (or less), which is not much more than the 16 mm for the MMII, and it is better quality optics. The 16 mm for the MMII, by the way, is lower quality optics than the 20 MM lens, that's why it's cheaper. Optical viewfinders can be had for both cameras for about the same price, and so can close up kits, again the Nikon optics are better. There are plenty of accessories that you can get for the Nikonos that you cannot get for the MMII, like an extension tube set, which offer 1:1, 1:2, and 1:3 magnification. The set can be had for under $100, or you can buy each tube separately. Plus an extension tube offers the superior optics of the Nikkor lens. But to answer your question, although I do have more, my Nikonos V and SB-103 strobe, Nikonos close up kit, Sea and Sea 16MM, Sea & Sea view finder and I'll throw in the Ikilite extension tube set, cost me $1682. This is not WAY more expensive than your set up.
>> In a nutshell, I love the MMII, and am afraid of messing up a Nikonos.
My intensions are not to blast the MMII; if I thought it was a piece of junk I wouldn't still own two. They are very good cameras and are great to teach and learn with. They do have their limitations. When most people decide to get serious about U/W photography, they either move up to a Nikonos or a housed system (we can talk housed systems later)
>> Depends on how much $$ you want to spend.
Yes it does, but if money is not the limiting factor, or you know that you will eventually move up, it might be best to go for a Nikonos right off the start. If I had it to do over, I would have two Nikonos and 1 MMII, not the other way around. One last thing that just came to mind, the lenses that are used on the MMII are ADD ON lenses or adaptors. The camera has a fixed or non-removable 35mm lens. The add on lenses are mounted to the fixed lens via a plastic bayonet mount. This plastic mount will wear out or become loose after continued mounting and dismounting of lenses. A loose lens will cause a loss of optical quality due to improper axis alignment of the add on lens elements.
As always, this is just my opinion.
Dive Safe,
Rooster
Both have the same controlls. The Nickonos Vs controlls are much better made and eiasier to adjust underwater. Here is a series of old posts on this subject:
Below are some excerpts from some recent posts on the pros and cons of each system:
(MMII Vs Nikonos)
This of course depends on how serious you want to get about your pictures. Are you diving to take pictures, or are you taking pictures while you dive? If you diving to take pictures having a camera that you can change lens U/W isn't a big deal. You more than likely plan to take a specific type of photo (wide, macro, etc.) and plan the dive to accommodate. This allows you to concentrate on specific equipment setup, configuration, and operation, for a specific goal. For this purpose the Nikonos is a much better camera, it offers higher quality, and flexibility of set up. Plus there are more quality accessories available for the Nikonos than any other U/W system.
If on the other hand your main purpose is to dive, and try to get some good photos while you are at it, then the MM II is a very good choice. As others have stated you can change lens U/W. There is a loss of quality, for this (U/W) flexibility. Yes you can take some fantastic pictures with this camera, but the overall quality and versatility is not as good as the Nikonos. The price however is a less than the Nikonos (but not 1/3 the price). This is based on a firsthand comparison, as I own both cameras. I will say this, I know quite a few divers that have moved up from a Motormarine to a Nikonos (Myself included), I don't know anyone that has gone from a Nikonos to a Motormarine.
Lastly, to respond to PattyG's post:
>>>My husband had a Nikonos V, and he had to choose the lens configuration before
>> getting wet. I am not familiar with any lenses that can be changed underwater
>> on a Nikonos. Maybe on a housed Nikon camera?
Yes the Nikonos close up kit can be removed U/W. It is an add on lens kit that comes with three different size framers. The size of framer you use is dependent on what lens the kit is mounted on (the standard 35, the 80mm, and the 28mm). The extension tube set however must be installed before getting wet.
>> I went with a MMIIEX for a few basic reasons:
>> 1. It only has 2 o-rings on the camera (fewer places to flood)
Actually they both have about the same number of o-rings, the MMII has fewer "user" acccessable o-rings. Every opening into the case has an o-ring or seal. This includes the battery compartment, primary lens (whether it's removable or not), rewind lever, strobe port, aperture knob, focus knob (the aperture and focus are on the lens and not through the case on the Nikonos), shutter release, and anything else that goes through the body or case. In fact the way I count them there are more case seals in the MMII Ex than the Nikonos. All these o-rings or seals need to be checked on a routine basis. If they are not user accessible, than it must be done by a qualified repair shop. Note: I have two MMIIs both have been flooded once. I have 1 Nikonos V, more dives on the Nikonos, never been flooded.
>> 2. Is about 1/3 the price of a Nikonos
B&H sells the MMII EX $555.99 and the Nikonos V with a 35mm F2.5 lens for $859.99 1/3 the price? More like 1/3 less. Big difference.
>> 3. Can be maintained and fixed at a fair price
It doesn't cost any more for the fresh water soak or o-ring lube from one camera to the other. If you look around you'll find service cost to be comparable. Repair depends on what is getting fixed. If it's flood repair the MMIIs repair may be more expensive than necessary. The standard flood repair is to replace the electronics module, which is basically the whole inside of the camera. I paid for just the module, not the labor (good friends with the tech) was about half the price of the camera.
>> 4. Can be used above water
So can the Nikons
>> Basically, I'm cheap, and want to take pictures for fun, not to publish. The
>> Nikonos involves a lot of maintenance, and I'm not that committed to it.
The Nokonos requires no more maintenance than the Motormarine. If your not spending the same amount of time on you MMII than you would with a Nikonos your asking for it. In fact after flooding two MMIIs I spend more time inspecting the MMIIs than I do the Nikonos.
>> I think I get some pretty good shots with it....
No argument there, Great Pics! I have seen that some are just naturals, and can take a good picture with a rock, while others can only get mediocre pic's with the most expensive equipment available. All things being equal though, you'll get better quality photos with better quality equipment.
Bottom line, the Nik V is a much better camera (than the MM) in all areas. Optical quality (the most important aspect) being far superior to the MM. Will the MM take good pictures? Yes But all thing being equal, can it take as good a picture as the Nik V? No.
I have stated this before, there are those that can take a good picture with a rock, while others can only get mediocre pic's with the most expensive equipment available. All things being equal though, you'll get better quality photos with better quality equipment. And the Nik V is a better quality camera than the MMII EX. Look what Leonardo Da Vinci did with the tools available to him. Can you imagine what he could do with the tools available today?
Nic Vs hold their value, kinda' like Harleys. Also as stated above, if you don't know how to take good pictures, you'll take lousy pictures with a great camera. Many people buy expensive cameras (not just underwater) and find they still take lousy pictures. They expect the equipment to overcome their inadequacies, (they don't know *how* to take a good picture), they get discouraged and sell them. I have seen this many times. Whatever camera you are using, a point and shoot or a housed system. Learn and practice some basic UW photography techniques (there are plenty of books and web sites dedicated to UW photo), learn your camera, and shoot some film.
Rooster
Hey PattyG
Didn't intend to flame, was just trying to give DiverDave my first hand knowledge about both cameras. But, again, to give DiverDave my perspective, I'll respond to you comments.
>> I got a MMIIEX with a strobe for $800. Are you saying a Nikonos V is only $859?
>> Is this just the housing? If you're talking about a complete camera, they sure
>> have come down in price!
You got a good deal on you camera, (I actually only paid $550 for my first MMII and strobe, but that was 9 years ago), but to be fair you need to look at what is available to most people. I quoted the B&H current catalog price. Look on the net or in the back of the dive rags and you'll find that yes the MMIIs are cheaper than the Nikonos, but not as cheap as you claim, not 1/3 the price. Of course good deals can always be found if you look hard enough, or are at the right place at the right time. I live out on Guam where everything is expensive but I bought a new Nikonos V with a 35 MM lens and an SB-103 (yes I still have the 103 and have not sent it in for the 105) flash kit Including arm tray and synch cord for $950. That's $150 more than your set up for a better camera and a more powerful strobe. Actually I paid $450 for the camera and about six months later got the strobe kit for $500.
>> You are one of the very few people I know who has not flooded a Nikonos. The
>> underwater camera shop I deal with in SF (Camera Tech) says maintenance on
>> the Nikonos must be done more frequently, since you are dealing with a metal
>> housing. Ask OC.....metal and salt water don't mix!
Actually I know quite a few people that have not flooded their Nikonos, but I also know some that have. I also know people that have, and have not, flooded their MMII. Yes I know, quite well, about metal and salt water, I live on Guam, and here everything rusts or corrodes, even if you try to take care of it. I also spent 21 years in the Air Force as an Aircraft Metals technologist, heat-treating, plating, welding, machining, corrosion control, and many other aspects of the manufacture and repair of aircraft parts made out of many types of high tech aircraft metals. Yes metal and salt water can be a problem, but so can plastic and salt water. I have one of my MMII currently apart in a million pieces, (this is the second one I flooded, more of a slight leak than a flood). You can see the wear caused by the salt water or grit (salt crystals) on the housing. The worst place is where the aperture and focus knobs come through the housing (these knobs are moved often). This is where I suspect the leak occurred. This is also a place where the user cannot service the seals. Again as I said above, if you are not taking care of you MMII as well as you think you should take care of a Nikonos you are in for trouble. One camera does not need any more care than the other. Of course a camera repair shop would want you to bring your camera in after every dive if they could get you to ;-}
>> Accessories for the Nikonos are WAY more expensive than for the MM. My set-up
>> includes the camera, one strobe, a 16mm wide angle lens, 2:1 macro set-up, and
>> an optical viewfinder. Add that up, and I get about $1400. Question for you
>> Rooster: what's the cost of that set-up for a Nikonos?
First I think most people would find it hard to get all the accessories that you list for $450, again that is not msrp. But like I said you can find great deals if you look. And I do look. Yes accessories for the Nikonos are more expensive, but not all are WAY more expensive. They are higher quality, especially when it comes to lenses. Yes the Nikon wide-angle lenses are very expensive, but they are the best on the market. You can however buy a Sea and Sea 16mm wide-angle conversion lens (for the Nikonos) for $343 (or less), which is not much more than the 16 mm for the MMII, and it is better quality optics. The 16 mm for the MMII, by the way, is lower quality optics than the 20 MM lens, that's why it's cheaper. Optical viewfinders can be had for both cameras for about the same price, and so can close up kits, again the Nikon optics are better. There are plenty of accessories that you can get for the Nikonos that you cannot get for the MMII, like an extension tube set, which offer 1:1, 1:2, and 1:3 magnification. The set can be had for under $100, or you can buy each tube separately. Plus an extension tube offers the superior optics of the Nikkor lens. But to answer your question, although I do have more, my Nikonos V and SB-103 strobe, Nikonos close up kit, Sea and Sea 16MM, Sea & Sea view finder and I'll throw in the Ikilite extension tube set, cost me $1682. This is not WAY more expensive than your set up.
>> In a nutshell, I love the MMII, and am afraid of messing up a Nikonos.
My intensions are not to blast the MMII; if I thought it was a piece of junk I wouldn't still own two. They are very good cameras and are great to teach and learn with. They do have their limitations. When most people decide to get serious about U/W photography, they either move up to a Nikonos or a housed system (we can talk housed systems later)
>> Depends on how much $$ you want to spend.
Yes it does, but if money is not the limiting factor, or you know that you will eventually move up, it might be best to go for a Nikonos right off the start. If I had it to do over, I would have two Nikonos and 1 MMII, not the other way around. One last thing that just came to mind, the lenses that are used on the MMII are ADD ON lenses or adaptors. The camera has a fixed or non-removable 35mm lens. The add on lenses are mounted to the fixed lens via a plastic bayonet mount. This plastic mount will wear out or become loose after continued mounting and dismounting of lenses. A loose lens will cause a loss of optical quality due to improper axis alignment of the add on lens elements.
As always, this is just my opinion.
Dive Safe,
Rooster
