Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

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Or sidemount.

Buddy separation occurs. There was an incident written up and shared on FB where some highly trained divers (GUE T1+ if I'm not mistaken) got separated and had some other issues (not gas loss). If people that well trained can get separated, what hopes do the rest of us have? Hence single tank limits the conditions in which one can dive. And yes, I'm not as good of a diver than someone with GUE T1 certification. That should be obvious.

Accidents and buddy loss do happen, but your story does prove my point. Suppose one plans their dive to include a minimum gas calculation, SCR, and waypoints of the dive to check those things. In that case, one significantly mitigates the dive's risk and does not need to lug around a dead raccoon (pony bottle) with them unless required for decompression. Moreover, if additional gas is needed to conduct the dive, one should learn how to dive in a doubles configuration adequately.
 
And here we go again. I’m guessing someone on my ignore list is pushing doubles. :facepalm:

If someone doesn’t want to dive doubles or SM, if they’re slinging a pony, at least it’s good they’re aware of the need for some redundancy. I think a 19 is useless and a 40 is better, though.

Marie, they wouldn't need doubles or a redundant gas source if they were taught how to calculate their gas consumption and plan a dive correctly.
 
Accidents and buddy loss do happen, but your story does prove my point. Suppose one plans their dive to include a minimum gas calculation, SCR, and waypoints of the dive to check those things. In that case, one significantly mitigates the dive's risk and does not need to lug around a dead raccoon (pony bottle) with them unless required for decompression. Moreover, if additional gas is needed to conduct the dive, one should learn how to dive in a doubles configuration adequately.
In a word, no.
 
The conclusion I recall drawing from the first 160+ posts in this thread before it went dormant in June was that "it depends"--on what kind of diving one is doing. Needless to say (but I will anyway) others may have different conclusions. The OP was a "beginner" and should be diving for a while in benign conditions and using the buddy system as taught. (This is the New Divers forum.) With proper gas planning for single-tank diving, this is all most of us in the middle of the bell curve of dive complexity need. To probably reiterate what I probably said upthread, in my opinion faithfully lugging along a pony on every dive as standard gear, having to practice with it to keep skills from getting rusty, having to get it inspected periodically, fill/transfill it occasionally, etc., all for the vanishingly low likelihood of it truly being needed because all that gas planning and good buddy procedures somehow failed, offers diminishing returns on safety. Outside that zone of doing fairly simple diving in which most divers fall, sure, there are solo divers (and those who are effectively solo divers) and people who dive in freezing water and stuff like that who need more than a buddy for their redundancy. If I were one of those divers, I'd choose backmount doubles or sidemount before a pony, but that's just me.
 
Can I have a bit more context to your reply, please?
Sure. Pony bottles and sidemount are perfectly acceptable sources of redundancy.

Let's remember that most of the world isn't DIR. There are different philosophies on diving. As long as people are safe, then there isn't an issue.

Some people dive solo. Some in jacket style BCDs. Some people just want to explore an area as hoc and not follow a preplanned route. If they adhere to min gas principles as a buddy pair and with their redundancy sources, there should be absolutely zero objections. They can even dive split fins if they wish.

While I'm a big proponent of GUE training for it's excellence, I do recognize that the GUE philosophy is rejected by the vast majority of divers. I'd even go so far that off the millions of divers out there, the number of people who have heard of GUE is less than a million.
 
The conclusion I recall drawing from the first 160+ posts in this thread before it went dormant in June was that "it depends"--on what kind of diving one is doing. Needless to say (but I will anyway) others may have different conclusions. The OP was a "beginner" and should be diving for a while in benign conditions and using the buddy system as taught. (This is the New Divers forum.) With proper gas planning for single-tank diving, this is all most of us in the middle of the bell curve of dive complexity need. To probably reiterate what I probably said upthread, in my opinion faithfully lugging along a pony on every dive as standard gear, having to practice with it to keep skills from getting rusty, having to get it inspected periodically, fill/transfill it occasionally, etc., all for the vanishingly low likelihood of it truly being needed because all that gas planning and good buddy procedures somehow failed, offers diminishing returns on safety. Outside that zone of doing fairly simple diving in which most divers fall, sure, there are are solo divers (and those who are effectively solo divers) and people who dive in freezing water and stuff like that who need more than a buddy for their redundancy. If I were one of those divers, I'd choose backmount doubles or sidemount before a pony, but that's just me.

This also begs the question. When did back-mounted doubles become advanced diving? My thought process is, find a community, mentor, or instructor to help you with this if you find yourself looking for redundant gas sources that could take you out of your recreational limitations of a single tank. If you want to go to 60 ft and stay longer and feel like you have enough gas to make that dive safely and have more fun, learn in doubles. Nothing says a brand new diver cannot learn to dive in a BP/W with a set of LP85's on their back. There are OW divers that come to Fundies and Doubles Primers all the time that have 5-10 dives under their belt.
 
Sure. Pony bottles and sidemount are perfectly acceptable sources of redundancy.

Let's remember that most of the world isn't DIR. There are different philosophies on diving. As long as people are safe, then there isn't an issue.

Some people dive solo. Some in jacket style BCDs. Some people just want to explore an area as hoc and not follow a preplanned route. If they adhere to min gas principles as a buddy pair and with their redundancy sources, there should be absolutely zero objections. They can even dive split fins if they wish.

While I'm a big proponent of GUE training for it's excellence, I do recognize that the GUE philosophy is rejected by the vast majority of divers. I'd even go so far that off the millions of divers out there, the number of people who have heard of GUE is less than a million.

Kosta, I haven't said anything about GUE. If new divers are looking for a redundant air source on a single AL80, They have not been taught how to 1. Calculate the gas it would take them and their buddy to get the surface safely in an emergency. 2. How to calculate their surface consumption rate. 3. How to calculate usable gas, and 4. How to determine how long their gas supply will last at depth.
These are examples of fundamental dive math that should be taught at the open water level, and IMHO, it lacks in today's instruction.
 
This also begs the question. When did back-mounted doubles become advanced diving? My thought process is, find a community, mentor, or instructor to help you with this if you find yourself looking for redundant gas sources that could take you out of your recreational limitations of a single tank. If you want to go to 60 ft and stay longer and feel like you have enough gas to make that dive safely and have more fun, learn in doubles. Nothing says a brand new diver cannot learn to dive in a BP/W with a set of LP85's on their back. There are OW divers that come to Fundies and Doubles Primers all the time that have 5-10 dives under their belt.

I agree. The UK comes to mind as a place where it is not uncommon for newer divers (though maybe not total beginners like the OP) to dive doubles and no deco obligation.
 

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