Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Can I have a bit more context to your reply, please?

Sure. Pony bottles and sidemount are perfectly acceptable sources of redundancy.

Let's remember that most of the world isn't DIR. There are different philosophies on diving. As long as people are safe, then there isn't an issue.

Some people dive solo. Some in jacket style BCDs. Some people just want to explore an area as hoc and not follow a preplanned route. If they adhere to min gas principles as a buddy pair and with their redundancy sources, there should be absolutely zero objections. They can even dive split fins if they wish.

While I'm a big proponent of GUE training for it's excellence, I do recognize that the GUE philosophy is rejected by the vast majority of divers. I'd even go so far that off the millions of divers out there, the number of people who have heard of GUE is less than a million.

 

[Hartattack]

The conclusion I recall drawing from the first 160+ posts in this thread before it went dormant in June was that "it depends"--on what kind of diving one is doing. Needless to say (but I will anyway) others may have different conclusions. The OP was a "beginner" and should be diving for a while in benign conditions and using the buddy system as taught. (This is the New Divers forum.) With proper gas planning for single-tank diving, this is all most of us in the middle of the bell curve of dive complexity need. To probably reiterate what I probably said upthread, in my opinion faithfully lugging along a pony on every dive as standard gear, having to practice with it to keep skills from getting rusty, having to get it inspected periodically, fill/transfill it occasionally, etc., all for the vanishingly low likelihood of it truly being needed because all that gas planning and good buddy procedures somehow failed, offers diminishing returns on safety. Outside that zone of doing fairly simple diving in which most divers fall, sure, there are are solo divers (and those who are effectively solo divers) and people who dive in freezing water and stuff like that who need more than a buddy for their redundancy. If I were one of those divers, I'd choose backmount doubles or sidemount before a pony, but that's just me.

This also begs the question. When did back-mounted doubles become advanced diving? My thought process is, find a community, mentor, or instructor to help you with this if you find yourself looking for redundant gas sources that could take you out of your recreational limitations of a single tank. If you want to go to 60 ft and stay longer and feel like you have enough gas to make that dive safely and have more fun, learn in doubles. Nothing says a brand new diver cannot learn to dive in a BP/W with a set of LP85's on their back. There are OW divers that come to Fundies and Doubles Primers all the time that have 5-10 dives under their belt.

 

[Hartattack]

Sure. Pony bottles and sidemount are perfectly acceptable sources of redundancy.

Let's remember that most of the world isn't DIR. There are different philosophies on diving. As long as people are safe, then there isn't an issue.

Some people dive solo. Some in jacket style BCDs. Some people just want to explore an area as hoc and not follow a preplanned route. If they adhere to min gas principles as a buddy pair and with their redundancy sources, there should be absolutely zero objections. They can even dive split fins if they wish.

While I'm a big proponent of GUE training for it's excellence, I do recognize that the GUE philosophy is rejected by the vast majority of divers. I'd even go so far that off the millions of divers out there, the number of people who have heard of GUE is less than a million.

Kosta, I haven't said anything about GUE. If new divers are looking for a redundant air source on a single AL80, They have not been taught how to 1. Calculate the gas it would take them and their buddy to get the surface safely in an emergency. 2. How to calculate their surface consumption rate. 3. How to calculate usable gas, and 4. How to determine how long their gas supply will last at depth.
These are examples of fundamental dive math that should be taught at the open water level, and IMHO, it lacks in today's instruction.

 

[Lorenzoid]

This also begs the question. When did back-mounted doubles become advanced diving? My thought process is, find a community, mentor, or instructor to help you with this if you find yourself looking for redundant gas sources that could take you out of your recreational limitations of a single tank. If you want to go to 60 ft and stay longer and feel like you have enough gas to make that dive safely and have more fun, learn in doubles. Nothing says a brand new diver cannot learn to dive in a BP/W with a set of LP85's on their back. There are OW divers that come to Fundies and Doubles Primers all the time that have 5-10 dives under their belt.

I agree. The UK comes to mind as a place where it is not uncommon for newer divers (though maybe not total beginners like the OP) to dive doubles and no deco obligation.

 

[Hartattack]

I agree. The UK comes to mind as a place where it is not uncommon for newer divers (though maybe not total beginners like the OP) to dive doubles and no deco obligation.

I'd like to make that a norm here in the states. It makes complete sense in the Midwest, and we like to get our community members to hop on doubles as soon as they feel comfortable. It also helps a ton in the balanced rig realm as we are all in dry suits most of the season, lol.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@Hartattack

What's easier when traveling and wanting redundancy?

Pony bottles or doubles?

While it was a PITA, I did travel with a 19 cu ft pony before I got into sidemount. Sometimes but not always I could rent a pony bottle. Of course slinging an extra AL80 is my solution if sidemount is verboten.

Kosta, I haven't said anything about GUE. If new divers are looking for a redundant air source on a single AL80, They have not been taught how to 1. Calculate the gas it would take them and their buddy to get the surface safely in an emergency. 2. How to calculate their surface consumption rate. 3. How to calculate usable gas, and 4. How to determine how long their gas supply will last at depth.
These are examples of fundamental dive math that should be taught at the open water level, and IMHO, it lacks in today's instruction.

By using the SCR acronym you appear to be talking about GUE. Your other assertions indicate the same.

I can only try to lead a horse to water. While a number of instructors and divers have used my dive planning doc as reference, I don't know how many open water classes perform SAC swims and timed distance swims and to calculate swim rate for an incredibly detailed dive plan.

But doing what I describe in my doc is no fun. It's purpose is to give new divers a method for overcoming nervousness and becoming confident to dive and enjoy their dives. Just adhere to min gas for safety.

If min gas with a high RMV is used, then that's good enough. If they have some sort of redundancy, even better to account for possible separation due to unexpected circumstances.

 

[Hartattack]

@Hartattack

What's easier when traveling and wanting redundancy?

Pony bottles or doubles?

While it was a PITA, I did travel with a 19 cu ft pony before I got into sidemount. Sometimes but not always I could rent a pony bottle. Of course slinging an extra AL80 is my solution if sidemount is verboten.


By using the SCR acronym you appear to be talking about GUE. Your other assertions indicate the same.

I can only try to lead a horse to water. While a number of instructors and divers have used my dive planning doc as reference, I don't know how many open water classes perform SAC swims and timed distance swims and to calculate swim rate for an incredibly detailed dive plan.

But doing what I describe in my doc is no fun. It's purpose is to give new divers a method for overcoming nervousness and becoming confident to dive and enjoy their dives. Just adhere to min gas for safety.

If min gas with a high RMV is used, then that's good enough. If they have some sort of redundancy, even better to account for possible separation due to unexpected circumstances.

No need to perform swims, use an SCR of .75ft/min for each diver for calculation; experience demonstrates this is a useful guesstimate that can be adjusted over time with experience. 1.5ft/min considers the needs of both divers. For a novice diver or a diver entering a new environment this value should be adjusted to a higher volume. However, once they get the basics and learn how to calculate these interchangeable terms correctly, It is a diver’s responsibility to evaluate their realistic stress consumption rate over several dives in various environments and adjust their Minimum Gas calculations.

As always, we want to create thinking divers in our students. Plus, it makes the sport more fun and nerdy, lol

 

[tursiops]

SCR of .75ft/min

0.75 cuft/min

 

[Hartattack]

0.75 cuft/min

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

No need to perform swims, use an SCR of .75ft/min for each diver for calculation; experience demonstrates this is a useful guesstimate that can be adjusted over time with experience. 1.5ft/min considers the needs of both divers. For a novice diver or a diver entering a new environment this value should be adjusted to a higher volume. However, once they get the basics and learn how to calculate these interchangeable terms correctly, It is a diver’s responsibility to evaluate their realistic stress consumption rate over several dives in various environments and adjust their Minimum Gas calculations.

As always, we want to create thinking divers in our students. Plus, it makes the sport more fun and nerdy, lol

I have found that when students use their own RMV and based on time it takes to go from waypoint to waypoint and they see that what they calculated is close to actual gas remaining, it does a lot for their confidence.

Unless they have large lungs (Hoovers) an RMV of 0.75 cu ft/min or 20 L/min works well for min gas calculations.