Can we take things from the ocean?

[lowwall]

Just remember it's the marine ornamental reef keeping hobby that is the funding, the R&D and science behind reef restoration.

What's the mechanism for this? I am familiar with the conservation efforts of many hunting organizations and of course the money that is dedicated to wildlife and land conservation from hunting licenses and the Pittman-Robertson excise taxes. But I don't know of any similar thing from private aquarists.

I am aware of reef restoration projects funded by universities, public aquariums, and various foreign NGOs. And there is Florida's Coral Reef Foundation, but only about 20% of their income came from individual donations according to their last annual report.

That said, I do agree there needs to be regulations and enforcement, especially in the Indo-Pacific. One thing I don't agree with is the notion it's a cheap hobby anyone can get into. It is one of the more expensive hobbies and the cost continues to skyrocket.

Agreed. Expensive and time-consuming if done at any scale. My point was that if all you need to feel free to collect wild specimens is a basic saltwater setup, that can be done for a couple hundred dollars.

 

[lowwall]

You misstate my premise. Socrates would be ashamed of you, but thanks for the explanation of reduction to the absurd. Since you raised the issue of formal argument, let me point out that yours is guilty of begging the question, a term which I assume you know means a logical flaw based on a missing element in a reasoning process and not the equivalent of 'raises the question'. Nowhere did I indicate that it's acceptable for every marine aquarist to collect their own fish. Actually, I indicated that it's quite acceptable for a highly experienced collector and aquarist like me to do so. In any case, you have no moral authority to decide what is acceptable for anyone other than yourself in these sorts of innocuous pursuits. The reef fish I and others collect are a vanishingly small number compared to the amount netted or trapped and eaten by local people. There are not that many marine aquarists in total, and only a very few of that number are divers, and even fewer still are capable of catching, maintaining, and transporting specimens.

It's actually quite amusing to be lectured to by an individual who believes that tropical strays should be left to be eaten by crabs when they perish. I assume you are opposed to cremation, since that process contributes to air pollution and deprives the earth and its bacterial and worm population the opportunity to feed on the carcass of a creature that has consumed vast quantities of nutrients during its life. I think I know a great deal more than you about issues related to size and rarity, and about ocean life in general, for that matter. Stick to what you know, however limiting that may be.

Here is what you said: I'm a marine aquarist and I have on occasion brought back a reef fish or two from the Caribbean for my aquariums. I know the exact fish I'm going to collect and am well prepared to keep them alive and safely transported.

Here is how I characterized your statement. Your premise is that it's morally acceptable for "marine aquarists" to collect tropical fish for their own use as long as it's done with due care to the fish.

I believe this is an accurate characterization. Indeed you basically restated it in your reply, although you have now added the condition that that this only applies to a highly experienced collector and aquarist like me.

As to your point about my lack of moral authority to judge you. That's just silly. This entire thread is about judging the morality of removing items while diving. I've stated my opinion, you've stated yours. Everyone else gets to decide on their own.

 

[scubaozy]

I hunt for fish and lobster. I collect shark teeth off of Venice Beach, Fl. I've collected a few shells here and there. I've been very careful to obey all laws when I do, whether they are national, state, or Captain's rules. It's up to you and your ethics about whether you will collect or not. Don't make the mistake of thinking that people who don't collect somehow have higher ethics. They're just different.

Following the law is minimum requirement for being able to live in a society. Nothing to be proud of. People will find excuses to justify what they do and it is very hard to reason with that. Do we believe when Japanese fishermen claims slaughtering whales for science?
What benefit collecting stuff brings to anyone else than you? It is extremely easy not to take anything from the ocean, why look for excuses?

 

[CuzzA]

What's the mechanism for this? I am familiar with the conservation efforts of many hunting organizations and of course the money that is dedicated to wildlife and land conservation from hunting licenses and the Pittman-Robertson excise taxes. But I don't know of any similar thing from private aquarists.

I am aware of reef restoration projects funded by universities, public aquariums, and various foreign NGOs. And there is Florida's Coral Reef Foundation, but only about 20% of their income came from individual donations according to their last annual report.


Agreed. Expensive and time-consuming if done at any scale. My point was that if all you need to feel free to collect wild specimens is a basic saltwater setup, that can be done for a couple hundred dollars.

All of the reef keeping products available to scientists were developed because of the hobby. Protein skimmers, wave makers, dosing pumps, led lighting specialized feeds, et cetera. Then there's the science. Decades of trial and error in fragging, breeding, finding optimal water parameters, nutrient levels. This was all done by a hobby. Now large aquariums, organizations and universities can buy the products designed and developed through the hobby, implement the techniques learned in the hobby, and can breed nearly any marine fish or propagate any coral. This was all as of a result of the hobby.

 

[Celt]

I’m firmly on the pillage and plunder side,

 

[100days-a-year]

So you have no problem with people looting wrecks where such actions are illegal?

Some divers around the Great Lakes would still strip wrecks here of everything if possible, even though attitudes have changed over the past 30-something years. New wrecks are being found all the time. I want to be able to dive these wrecks with their artifacts intact, not stripped to decorate someone’s den.

1. Perhaps you didn't notice the OP was specifically speaking of an ocean dive.
2. Try jumping jacks instead of jumping to conclusions.

 

[The Chairman]

People will find excuses to justify what they do

why look for excuses?

That's a pretty broad brush. Are you suggesting that I need to make excuses for shooting a fish to eat? For catching a lobster? For picking up a megalodon tooth? They are all pretty exciting events for me. Do you think less of me for this? If so, that says a lot more about you, than it does about me.

But I don't know of any similar thing from private aquarists.

Ken Neidemeyer single-handedly created Coral Restoration Foundation. His is an amazing story in my opinion. He went from aquarist to fish collector to live rock farmer, and then to conservationist. He doesn't regret any single step he took, either. His first staghorn came from a growth on one of his live rocks. He asked for permission to try to cultivate it and was met with criticism. The scientists told him that it was not possible, so he did it anyway. He heard "that won't work" so many times, but he kept at it and succeeded where others simply gave up. Compared to the plodding work of scientists, Ken worked at the speed of light. Now, there are satellite coral restoration facilities throughout the Caribbean restoring reefs. And this all started from a single aquarist. Go figure and now you know.

BTW, when a scientist needs a particular genome of staghorn and many other corals, they need only contact Coral Restoration Foundation.

Caveat: I consider Ken a personal friend so I'm biased. I've worked on their vehicles, donated equipment, led dives for them, and planted lots of coral under their aegis. This is citizen science at its best. If you're in the Keys, do yourself a favor and go dive with them.

 

[Centrals]

Fishing with one line and one hook for few years and then gave up completely.
Nowadays the only thing I take from the ocean is rubbish when I am diving. I buy fish occasionally from the market.
Never ever taken anything from any wrecks that I had dived.

 

[The Chairman]

[Rant]In my opinion, there is a real need to adopt the "Dive and let Dive" mentality. It's a huge ocean and there's room for all of us in it. Humans by nature are hunter-gatherers. Every endeavor has its plusses and minuses when it comes to the environment. Everything we do comes with an impact on the planet. Everything. If you eat fish, whether you catch it or not, you're taking it out of the ocean. If you only eat farm-raised fish, then you're abetting the pollution such farms create that sometimes impact local reefs. Even vegetarians have an impact, though they may not want to see it.

No, I'm not condoning everything either. There is a litany of underwater activities that are illegal or unconscionable. I want every poacher to be caught and fined. I want every diver who illegally takes items off of a protected wreck to be held liable as well. [/Rant]

 

[agilis]

Here is what you said: I'm a marine aquarist and I have on occasion brought back a reef fish or two from the Caribbean for my aquariums. I know the exact fish I'm going to collect and am well prepared to keep them alive and safely transported.

Here is how I characterized your statement. Your premise is that it's morally acceptable for "marine aquarists" to collect tropical fish for their own use as long as it's done with due care to the fish.

I believe this is an accurate characterization. Indeed you basically restated it in your reply, although you have now added the condition that that this only applies to a highly experienced collector and aquarist like me.

As to your point about my lack of moral authority to judge you. That's just silly. This entire thread is about judging the morality of removing items while diving. I've stated my opinion, you've stated yours. Everyone else gets to decide on their own.

Now you're just being silly. To include all relevant details would have required a post several pages long. I did state that I'd been doing this for decades and that in over 40 years I'd never lost a fish during the transport process. I think you failed to infer what was clearly implicit. I also think the thread was more about ethics than it was about morality. There is no ethical difference between what I do and what a fisherman does if he keeps a few fish.