Specialty course/instructor quality?

[loosenit2]

I see what you mean and disagree with you.

I posted (what I think are) sources to find instructors who may go beyond the standards: this does not mean that the majority of other instructors do not meet the standards.

There may be instructors who have low quality classes (and I have done classes which I regretted paying for) but I have no idea whether this is the majority.

There is a difference between doing the standards and going beyond them. The vast majority of the OW students learn enough to do a few scuba dives and be reasonably safe, you may think that this is not enough but this is another point than "the agencies are failing".

Fair enough point, perhaps failing is too strong a word, in need of improvement may be a more fair description.

 

[Esprise Me]

What agency? As it is outside of standards to deploy DSMBs in a deep course.

That surprises me. Which course is it supposed to be covered in?

 

[BlueTrin]

That surprises me. Which course is it supposed to be covered in?

In padi OW you are supposed to learn it but it can be done at the surface

I saw this page: Delayed Surface Marker Buoy (DSMB) Diver | PADI

 

[Edward3c]

In padi OW you are supposed to learn it but it can be done at the surface

I saw this page: Delayed Surface Marker Buoy (DSMB) Diver | PADI

I think that illiterates my point about the commercially driven instructors not teaching anything extra than what’s in the course. Why would a PADI instructor teach DSMB on the deep or wreck courses when it’s an income stream in it’s own right.

 

[KenGordon]

I posted (what I think are) sources to find instructors who may go beyond the standards: this does not mean that the majority of other instructors do not meet the standards.

People seem to think going beyond the standards is somehow better than sticking with the standards.

There are two dimensions to standards. The course contents and the level of skill displayed by the trainee. I want courses that contain what they are designed to contain. I am happy if I learn little tips along the way, but really I am there to learn the particular skills that course is about. The quality of execution of a skill is genuinely variable. Better instructors will be able to improve on the level of achievement of their trainees, partly that is experience, partly teaching ability, partly fundamental understanding of what is being taught. However, it is not helpful to teach far beyond the requirements of the course, it means the students learning of the stuff on the course will be crowded out to some extent.

Unfortunately getting an instructor for first level courses is a lottery. Higher level, then follow Bluetrin’s advice and try to see and talk to instructors beforehand.

Keep in mind that everyone has parameters in their teaching style and some students fall outside those, so they become incompatible. If you are the sort of person who is easily annoyed then doing a short course first or getting to have at a dive show is important. Preconceptions are another issue. Anyone reading SB will probably think they know a lot about any course they are taking, what doing stuff properly entails etc, either choose someone that definitely meets those or leave them at home.

 

[markmud]

Hi everyone,

I recently did my deep and wreck specialties and wasn't overly impressed with the training or what I took away from the courses. I was hoping I could get the group's views on whether my expectations are unrealistic or whether the instructor was sub-par.

My observations were:

1. Limited skills practice - for the deep course we practiced underwater DSMB deployment twice, so once per dive. That makes sense. But for the wreck course we only practiced laying a cross-wreck line once, with no repetition to practice the skill for improvement or retention.
2. Limited assessment of skills - while demonstrating our ability to lay lines, three of us did it simultaneously so it didn't seem like the instructor would have been able to pay attention to how we each started, created a station, or tied off the lines. No feedback was offered on the skill other than being told I performed it correctly. But I doubt that my first ever attempt was fault free.
3. No comment or correction on basic dive skills - during my advanced course the instructor was constantly telling me how I could refine my buoyancy and trim. During this course I received no such feedback to improve my general diving. I had a lot of trouble nailing my buoyancy on the last two dives and I was up and down way too much. When I asked about it the response I got was that my buoyancy was fine. I doubt that to be the case.
4. Sense of just ticking boxes - the whole experience felt like the instructor was just trying to meet the minimum standards for the courses and get us to pass rather than actually trying to make us better divers. I enrolled in the courses because I wanted to develop my basic skills as well as learning new skills to a reasonable standard and pick up the theoretical knowledge. But I couldn't escape the feeling that the instructor just wanted to push us through the courses. To his credit though, he did go above minimum requirements on the deep course and had us practice carrying a stage cylinder and switch to breathing from it.
5. Paying little attention to the students during dives - We did some decent swim-throughs on the wreck course, certainly requiring torches. At one stage one of the students swam hard to catch up to the instructor to tell him he was at 120 bar (agreed turnaround point) and shone his torch beam across the instructor's to get his attention, but he was unable to get his attention until we were out of the wreck. Again, from my advanced course I was used to the instructor being a lot more attentive and this seemed to be a much lower standard.

Sorry for the long post, but I don't feel experienced enough to make a proper assessment on these courses/the instructor.

Would love to hear your views.

Hi Jits Ronin,

I read your thread backwards (last post first, to your OP last) and then thought to myself, what did Jits think he was paying for?

A tech level course? A comprehensive training course?

The recreational scuba training regimen is just what you described. It is a trail of bits and pieces that any mouse would find attractive enough to follow. But, but...you end-up with all those cool cert cards!!!

Comments on your listed points:

1. Limited skills practice: My instructors did limited skills practice for most of us because we were adequately competent.
2. A good diver can spot a good skillset in another diver in about 20 seconds.
3. If you are on your way to mastering basic skills and understand the philosophy behind it, then why waste time boring people to death.
4. That's what the recreational system is. You are supposed play the role of the mouse who follows the bread crumbs to that big blob of peanut butter on trap's trigger mechanism. Your reward is a Master Scuba Diver title with a fist full of cert cards to prove it.
5. You were being taught a few skills that you probably mentally mastered during the dry-runs on land. You probably understood the concept and were able to accomplish the goal reasonably well so the instructor said to himself/herself: "My work is done here, now I need to give them the elevator speech for the next set of certs to sell them."

If you want comprehensive training, sign-up for tech courses. I witnessed a diver being put on the short-bus during tech training. Dive well, or you are assigned remedial training.

I did enjoy PADI's Self-Reliant course. It was a bit challenging in the cold winter water of Monterey. And as the instructor mentioned with a chuckle, your face will scream when you rip off your mask for the mask replacement drills.

I am full circle here. OP, your perception of the training regimen for recreational divers is askew, IMHO.

cheers,
m

 

[BlueTrin]

People seem to think going beyond the standards is somehow better than sticking with the standards.

You are right: what I meant to say is that I had instructors doing the bare minimum and signing off people who didn’t look like they would meet the standard. This happened during my AOW.

I also agree with @markmud : I may be wrong but I think the class is only there to teach you some theory and then to have a bit of practice so you will be reasonably safe and have some idea of the basics and then you can practice on your own by diving.

 

[TMHeimer]

People seem to think going beyond the standards is somehow better than sticking with the standards.

There are two dimensions to standards. The course contents and the level of skill displayed by the trainee. I want courses that contain what they are designed to contain. I am happy if I learn little tips along the way, but really I am there to learn the particular skills that course is about. The quality of execution of a skill is genuinely variable. Better instructors will be able to improve on the level of achievement of their trainees, partly that is experience, partly teaching ability, partly fundamental understanding of what is being taught. However, it is not helpful to teach far beyond the requirements of the course, it means the students learning of the stuff on the course will be crowded out to some extent.

Unfortunately getting an instructor for first level courses is a lottery. Higher level, then follow Bluetrin’s advice and try to see and talk to instructors beforehand.

Keep in mind that everyone has parameters in their teaching style and some students fall outside those, so they become incompatible. If you are the sort of person who is easily annoyed then doing a short course first or getting to have at a dive show is important. Preconceptions are another issue. Anyone reading SB will probably think they know a lot about any course they are taking, what doing stuff properly entails etc, either choose someone that definitely meets those or leave them at home.

Very well put. You must have some education training.

 

[lowviz]

I may be wrong but I think the class is only there to teach you some theory and then to have a bit of practice so you will be reasonably safe and have some idea of the basics and then you can practice on your own by diving.

What a fresh thought!

I like focussed intermittent personal attention as to my own particular issues with how I dive. Not constant attention, just point out the biggies and be able to clearly express your corrections.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that one can overcome bad habits and become proficient in a one or two day course.

 

[Edward3c]

Nobody in their right mind thinks that one can overcome bad habits and become proficient in a one or two day course.

That’s the best diving joke I’ve read in a while. Especially when I apply it to some students I’ve had over the years.