Cost diff between in person and online

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Out of curiosity, as an instructor that gets students that have done the online learning, how much time do you end up spending reviewing material with them to make sure they learned everything they needed to from the online learning?

I've never had a student with online learning. I've only done traditional.

I'm a college professor by day, so my classroom skills are fairly well polished (It was pretty funny when I did my classroom presentations during my IDC; my classmates would ask me afterward how I was able to do it so effortlessly, and I had to remind them "I do this for a living, been doing it for years.")

I know the PADI online is pretty fancy... but I've always been confident that my classroom work is superior to what is presented online. And my students get an actual book to keep.

If I ever were to handle a student that did the online... I would probably review extensively, just to be absolutely certain there were no gaps in what they need to know.
 
If I ever were to handle a student that did the online... I would probably review extensively, just to be absolutely certain there were no gaps in what they need to know.
So this is what my expectation would be... That a non-zero amount of time, perhaps even a substantial amount of time, would be used to review what the student was supposed to learn. In essence, the student would be instructed on the material twice, and I would expect instructors to price their courses accordingly. The point being that comparing in person instruction to e learning and then in person review are not the same amount of work. One would then expect the costs of doing the e learning and in person to be more because there is some overlap in what is being performed.
 
So this is what my expectation would be... That a non-zero amount of time, perhaps even a substantial amount of time, would be used to review what the student was supposed to learn. In essence, the student would be instructed on the material twice, and I would expect instructors to price their courses accordingly. The point being that comparing in person instruction to e learning and then in person review are not the same amount of work. One would then expect the costs of doing the e learning and in person to be more because there is some overlap in what is being performed.

Yesss... exactly. And in my posts above I didn't include this factor in the cost explanation. But it is part of the "lack of transparency" that I mention above: students that do online + instructor review will always have some overlap (and therefore additional time by the instructor) than students that do only classroom with instructor.

And that's my main issue with the online learning: PADI allows students to believe it's more efficient and that it should save them money, but it's actually less efficient (and costs a lot more!) because of the instructor review factor. But it's popular with a lot of instructors because many instructors don't really like doing classroom work.
 
So this is what my expectation would be... That a non-zero amount of time, perhaps even a substantial amount of time, would be used to review what the student was supposed to learn. In essence, the student would be instructed on the material twice, and I would expect instructors to price their courses accordingly. The point being that comparing in person instruction to e learning and then in person review are not the same amount of work. One would then expect the costs of doing the e learning and in person to be more because there is some overlap in what is being performed.
PADI eLearning is designed and intended to teach the student the academics just once. If a shop/instructor decides to go over the material in depth a second time, that is their decision; whether that is a reasonable decision or not is another conversation. And of course, whether or not to charge for added time that is NOT part of the PADI instructional design is up to them.

Some pertinent thoughts and notes on the subject, in no particular order:
  • For Open Water Diver, there is a Quick Quiz done in person as what I refer to as a "quality control check" to indicate if the student in front of me was paying attention to the online course or not, or if someone looking over their shoulder did most of the work or interfered in the learning.
  • With eLearning AOW, the 5 Knowledge Reviews and the Think Like A Diver section serve the same purpose.
  • The one general area where eLearning does NOT prepare the student well enough is for using a Dive Planner, which is optional. (Computer use is assumed.) So I spend time going over Dive Planner use and dive planning in general before my students take the Quick Quiz. No added charge, as I do get my cut from eLearning.
  • The other pattern I have found for ill-prepared OW students is those that do not take eLearning seriously, and seek to do the minimum amount of work in the least amount of time. Those who multi-task through or even skip over the videos ("I already read this, why do I have to watch it too?") and ignore the remediation on incorrect answers to online quizzes and tests are quickly identified when they can't even get 75% correct on the Quick Quiz. I caution against this before my students start the course, and especially discuss it with parents of minors.
  • The really critical components of academics are reviewed and reinforced during the actual skill development in confined water and/or the open water dive briefings. You don't just move from eLearning to the water and then descend to do your skills.
  • I have no doubt that there are many instructors that do a better job in person than eLearning does. (...although probably not as many as think they do...) I also have no doubt that there are many instructors that struggle to adequately teach a traditional classroom version and don't do as well as eLearning does. I am convinced that using the eLearning course raises the "average" quality of academic instruction received, when the student diver doesn't pencil whip the course.
  • I really don't see blaming PADI marketing because some folks flying their brand flag have not embraced eLearning but rather continue to resist its use. The market place tends to sort out most of that, and PADI can NOT fix pricing. At least in the US, they are limited to enforcement of Minimum Advertising Pricing on the products that they produce and which are resold by retailers.
 
PADI eLearning is designed and intended to teach the student the academics just once.
I understand that that's the intent, but I doubt that is what actually happens in practice. Even if a student does take it seriously and absorbs everything, I would still expect the instructor to have to perform a secondary level of review to verify that. There's always going to be some level of ven diagram overlap.

I'm not being critical of the e-learning model, PADI, or shops that charge "more" when e-learning is used, just pointing out a reality of implementation that goes to further explain why there is a difference in cost and why the market has stabilized where it has.
 
I understand that that's the intent, but I doubt that is what actually happens in practice. Even if a student does take it seriously and absorbs everything, I would still expect the instructor to have to perform a secondary level of review to verify that. There's always going to be some level of ven diagram overlap.

I'm not being critical of the e-learning model, PADI, or shops that charge "more" when e-learning is used, just pointing out a reality of implementation that goes to further explain why there is a difference in cost and why the market has stabilized where it has.
The instances of "extra work, extra charges" are naturally what tends to show up on forums such as this. In the absence of any study or survey, whether that is the exception or the rule is pure conjecture. I do suspect that the degree to which eLearning has NOT been embraced is highly subject to observational bias, and may very well be in the minority. Aside from administering the Quick Quiz for OW, the instructor does NOT "have to perform a secondary level of review."

I also forgot to mention an anecdote I heard but can't personally vouch for. I was told that when PADI first planned to introduce eLearning, they had NOT planned to include the Quick Quiz to be personally administered by an instructor. The story is that PADI membership told them loud and clear that would not be acceptable, and so the Quick Quiz was added.
 
I do suspect that the degree to which eLearning has NOT been embraced is highly subject to observational bias, and may very well be in the minority.
I don't think an instructor doing enough of a review to verify the students picked up what they were supposed to falls under the category of not embracing e-learning. I see it as no different than someone doing a referral course having some sort of review before doing their OW dives. PADI may not require it (hell, they probably should if they don't), but I'd be amazed if any instructor didn't do some amount of overlap. I think I'd be more concerned about an instructor that didn't and just assumed the student got what they needed.
 
I don't think an instructor doing enough of a review to verify the students picked up what they were supposed to falls under the category of not embracing e-learning. I see it as no different than someone doing a referral course having some sort of review before doing their OW dives. PADI may not require it (hell, they probably should if they don't), but I'd be amazed if any instructor didn't do some amount of overlap. I think I'd be more concerned about an instructor that didn't and just assumed the student got what they needed.
Pretty much agree. Except I think you previously described a scenario in which someone basically reteaches the academics. Quite a bit different from administering the Quick Review and continuing to review/enforce the content learned during pool and open water sessions.

As long as you mention it, yes when receiving a student for ANY in water training, whether a referral or for a new continuing education course, it is required to first do an in-water assessment.
 
Pretty much agree. Except I think you previously described a scenario in which someone basically reteaches the academics. Quite a bit different from administering the Quick Review and continuing to review/enforce the content learned during pool and open water sessions.

What I was trying to get at is there is some degree of overlap. How much obviously depends on the situation, but there will always be some. This is a factor in why it costs more to do e-learning first.
 
What I was trying to get at is there is some degree of overlap. How much obviously depends on the situation, but there will always be some. This is a factor in why it costs more to do e-learning first.
And I disagree on required overlap leading to higher costs, as long as the eLearning revenue share is making it's way to the shop/instructor that is doing the next steps. That should more than compensate for that effort. (Independent instructors don't actually get revenue share, for them to receive their "piece" of eLearning they need to first purchase an access pass from PADI and then sell it to their students at a markup.)
 
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