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Horizon Dive Adventures Complaint Filed in Federal Court
- Thread starter Doc Ben
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Dusty123
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Salt water 64lb/ft^3
28L/ft^3
Adult male respiratory volume 6 liters
Then other cavities ie stomach
Revo CL volume 5.5-7L depending on model, plus loop hoses and space in scrubbers etc
Revo Wing Lift 35-55lb depending on model
Assuming unit was flooded and so was Rob (RIP) perhaps the wings lift was marginal in this scenario? Again I don’t know what he had for setup or additional weight.
Dusty123
Contributor
That’s a lot of dil to fill a wing at 220ft and he had at least partially done it once on previous dive and maintained volume in the CL on the way down. I would think he would have had dil on surface though. There was one spike in PO2 that he might have last used dil on bottom. If you assumed he ran out on bottom, when he reached surface he now should have had 100psi or so in a 2L tank to fill his wing, so 12L or so at near atmospheric pressure which should nearly fill the wing 35lb wing at surface.
KevinNM
Contributor
I do not think Add Helium advocated diving it in the CE tested configuration. Not sure that they did in fact do that on this trip, but I have been told their policy was to make significant changes to the CE config that it is shipped in.
Ayisha
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Fun fact, I'm 99.9% sure that you can't legally sell a CE rebreather in the US. I'm not aware of any tanks that are approved for the euro market that also have DOT stamps on them, nor will you find any fill station in the US with M26 fittings for the O2 tanks. Both of which are required for CE certification, neither of which I have ever seen in the US. The rebreather itself has to go through testing as a full unit, so no way you'd be able to deal with one here.
Cruisin Home
Contributor
Forgive me for being somewhat ignorant to Rebreathers:
1) That said, if a rebreather diver surfaces is there not a way for him to fill his "wings/BCD/drysuit" with enough air to overcome anything including any part of his rebreather 'flooding"? He was buoyant enough to remain at deco stop for 7 minutes. He did sink like a rock on the final "dive" (60 seconds to drop 200 feet) so I assume he became quite 'negative". if not flooding that made him negative then he had to lose gas some other way, did he vent his wing or drysuit? obviously he was not in a mental state to drop any weights.
which really brings me to ask the cause of "change in mental status" as we say in the medical field?
2) As a 35+ year engineer (aerospace to medical), I've seen and been part of countless accident/failure investigations. It has made me a non-believer in "coincidences". Do you find it a "coincidence" that his buddy was suffering some malady on the boat and he also suffering some malady in the water and that they are not related? I tend to believe they were not coincidental. If I'm right, and they are related, what could it be? Seems as if hypoxia and hyperoxia are maybe ruled out by the diver's PPo2 log. DCS? Did his profile call for longer deco stop? If they were required to do a longer profile then why did they abort deco? if they were both "bent" then how did the one that lived become unbent? Some other toxicity such as CO poisoning? Gas contamination? Can it be CO2? did they not have enough scrubber material left?
Seems to me I would really want to find out what the surviving diver was suffering from. But seems he is not talking about what happened to him. why? I am Chairman of Quality & Safety for a large hospital system, and this type of behavior is often (not always) indicative of some semblance of guilt in the mind of the non-discloser. Not always though, can also be in fear of the process, or they got silenced by a lawyer already. often this type of behavior results in an injured patient filing a lawsuit. We now invite patients to our Accident reviews and the number of lawsuits have dropped by almost order of magnitude. Families get pissed when you react in silence. Are we witnessing this happening?
All of what I have said above can be pure BS from an armchair Open Circuit weenie! I only have posted now that I have seen actual Data. This case is intriguing, sad, and mysterious all at the same time. I really admired what he was trying to accomplish with his life. But remember old proverb: it is the Fool that can ask a question that a 1000 Wisemen cant answer!
Regards
The Fool
1) That said, if a rebreather diver surfaces is there not a way for him to fill his "wings/BCD/drysuit" with enough air to overcome anything including any part of his rebreather 'flooding"? He was buoyant enough to remain at deco stop for 7 minutes. He did sink like a rock on the final "dive" (60 seconds to drop 200 feet) so I assume he became quite 'negative". if not flooding that made him negative then he had to lose gas some other way, did he vent his wing or drysuit? obviously he was not in a mental state to drop any weights.
which really brings me to ask the cause of "change in mental status" as we say in the medical field?
2) As a 35+ year engineer (aerospace to medical), I've seen and been part of countless accident/failure investigations. It has made me a non-believer in "coincidences". Do you find it a "coincidence" that his buddy was suffering some malady on the boat and he also suffering some malady in the water and that they are not related? I tend to believe they were not coincidental. If I'm right, and they are related, what could it be? Seems as if hypoxia and hyperoxia are maybe ruled out by the diver's PPo2 log. DCS? Did his profile call for longer deco stop? If they were required to do a longer profile then why did they abort deco? if they were both "bent" then how did the one that lived become unbent? Some other toxicity such as CO poisoning? Gas contamination? Can it be CO2? did they not have enough scrubber material left?
Seems to me I would really want to find out what the surviving diver was suffering from. But seems he is not talking about what happened to him. why? I am Chairman of Quality & Safety for a large hospital system, and this type of behavior is often (not always) indicative of some semblance of guilt in the mind of the non-discloser. Not always though, can also be in fear of the process, or they got silenced by a lawyer already. often this type of behavior results in an injured patient filing a lawsuit. We now invite patients to our Accident reviews and the number of lawsuits have dropped by almost order of magnitude. Families get pissed when you react in silence. Are we witnessing this happening?
All of what I have said above can be pure BS from an armchair Open Circuit weenie! I only have posted now that I have seen actual Data. This case is intriguing, sad, and mysterious all at the same time. I really admired what he was trying to accomplish with his life. But remember old proverb: it is the Fool that can ask a question that a 1000 Wisemen cant answer!
Regards
The Fool
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@Cruisin Home
1-it depends on the routing of his diluent/inflation bottle/s. In this case diver was in a wetsuit and it is likely that the onboard bottle was both diluent and wing inflation. If that bottle was off, no there would be no way to power inflate his wing, only orally inflate. It is not uncommon that a wing will not be large enough to fully float a flooded rebreather. They are immensely heavy and if it fully floods, it is quite possible you would not have enough lift. I know mine is nowhere close. I carry a 50lb lift bag in the ocean to help should that happen for some bizarre reason.
In terms of sinking like a rock, it's possible his rebreather did fully flood if the loop came out of his mouth, and the Revo is quite negative as is.
Cause of change of mental state? who knows
2- I think most of us believe they are related. It is unlikely hypercapnia. Safety diver is not likely going to talk because it won't look good for him, granted it already doesn't look good, but is what it is.
1-it depends on the routing of his diluent/inflation bottle/s. In this case diver was in a wetsuit and it is likely that the onboard bottle was both diluent and wing inflation. If that bottle was off, no there would be no way to power inflate his wing, only orally inflate. It is not uncommon that a wing will not be large enough to fully float a flooded rebreather. They are immensely heavy and if it fully floods, it is quite possible you would not have enough lift. I know mine is nowhere close. I carry a 50lb lift bag in the ocean to help should that happen for some bizarre reason.
In terms of sinking like a rock, it's possible his rebreather did fully flood if the loop came out of his mouth, and the Revo is quite negative as is.
Cause of change of mental state? who knows
2- I think most of us believe they are related. It is unlikely hypercapnia. Safety diver is not likely going to talk because it won't look good for him, granted it already doesn't look good, but is what it is.
Out of curiosity, what are the testing requirements for rebreathers in the US?
Is the issue just they cylinders and m26 thread or is there’s something else?
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@KenGordon no testing requirements to sell in the US.
Unaware of any 3/4" NPSM valves with M26 outlets to use the O2 specific regulators
Unaware of any M25x2 tanks with DOT certifications to use the M26 valves
CE certs spec the tanks, and if the tanks spec'd don't also have DOT stamps on them, then they can't be used here since they can't be hydro'd
Unaware of any 3/4" NPSM valves with M26 outlets to use the O2 specific regulators
Unaware of any M25x2 tanks with DOT certifications to use the M26 valves
CE certs spec the tanks, and if the tanks spec'd don't also have DOT stamps on them, then they can't be used here since they can't be hydro'd
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