Suunto Eon Steel And Its Algorithm Lock Logic.

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

As I understand it you need to accept a disclaimer of some description before going from OC to Tech settings - but in a society where some can successfully sue for spilling coffee on themselves because the liquid was hot and they were't properly warned - I do wonder.

If you're talking about the Perdix, that isn't the case. (And please don't bang on about people "spilling coffee on themselves" if you haven't looked into what actually happened, and the lady's very significant injuries.)
 
Last edited:
@Diving Dubai very well reasoned post and I really think this is what it boils down to. I am not a technical diver, but I am starting a technical path of training and have nearly completed my NAUI Intro to Tech, as my skills improve I plan on getting trimix certified. Even with all this, do I feel confident enough to play with Gradient Factors, or would I simply go with DAN's recommended of 30/70 and set and forget. I don't know, I surely do not have the experience or knowledge at this point to determine what the proper GF would be, even if I have good knowledge of any stress factors that should be added for conservatism. Putting price aside, would the Eon Steel be a better choice for me for the foreseeable future, probably. Would I trust the Eon Steel for serious technical dives, no, not unless I had the skills and knowledge to perform deco dives without a computer.

@Imla your experience is a perfect example of what I had in mind as a prime example where altering your dive plan makes perfect sense. And this is where the Suunto fails, having said that though, one thing that this discussion has really highlighted is the need to still plan a dive on paper or software of choice and have a pointed break down of that plan on wetnotes or slates for any deco dive. This prevents total reliance on computers, allows you to compare manual calculations against computer data and allows for better human judgement in the event things go pear shaped.
 
And please don't bang on about people "spilling coffee on themselves" if you haven't looked into what actually happened, and the lady's very significant injuries.)

Lieback V Mc Donalds 1994.

Yes I do know of the case very well so there. It was very sad that the 79 year old lady suffered 3rd degree burns.

The fact remains and hence the massive debate that still echos from this case, is that the lady in question opened the lid of the coffee whilst holding it between her thighs.

Yes the coffee was hot 81-82C is what the brew machine was set too. The ideal brew temp is 91-92C and anything over 60C would cause injury.

The impact of this case was is where does personal responsibility end? If I take a shortcut and get an electric shock is it mine because I know better or the manufacturer? Hold a hot substance between my thighs and get burnt?

This is the issue - not just this case lots since then that causes the manufacturers to lock down their products. People seem to want to take no responsibility for their own actions

I have silly warnings on my truck mirrors telling me objects may be closer than they appear, all sorts of noises warning me that I haven't put on a seat belt, left my keys in the ignition etc the list goes on.

Is it any surprise in that manufacturers of any product lock them down to prevent frivolous litigation
 
There is a simple answer to all this. If you are wanting to get into tech diving just get a Shearwater. Cheaper than Eon, great customer service to the point where they can even be repaired. They don't lock you out. User friendly interface. I have a Suunto Vytec DS and used it on over 1000 dives over the last 10 years and it has been great. I still take it on most dives. It occasionally gets locked out as it does nto follow the gas choices I make or the rebreather I use, but even when locked up still works on the dive as a bottom timer/backup and logs dive profiles. It is small and compact and has been very reliable. The user interface is a bit painful. I have also got 3 Shearwater computers: Pursuit, Predator and Petrel and have been using them for years. They are much much better for tech diving. If you are doing non tech dives then Suunto pucks are a good choice in my view. They may be a bit more conservative but I don't think that is a bad thing if you don't want to get into GFs but are doing longer/deeper/repetitive dives.

The Eon is too expensive and not flexible enough. Going on other's experiences, repairs by Suunto would appear to be problematic. Why spend more for less? Maybe consider an OSTC - I have dived with a few people who have them and they seem OK - but I still think Shearwater is the way to go for technical diving. The new Perdix looks even better than my Petrel as a standalone computer.
 
The [ScubaPro] Uwatec Galileos like to call themselves technical, but frankly, they are very expensive data collectors.

The will lock you out, and won't let you turn on gasses underwater, or change O2 settings. Piss poor.
 
Dear All,

The Suunto EON Steel does not completely lock the diver out.

If you break your decompression obligation(s) under the algorithm it only locks the algorithm not the computer as a whole (as the data it produces is not sufficiently safe to rely upon for reasonably safe decompression purposes). It will still display the depth and duration of the dive so a technical diver proficient in the use of tables will (or should) be able to calculate an appropriate ascent profile without the computer.

In respect of other computers (i.e. so called technical dive computers which use the Buhlmann ZHL-16 algorithm with gradient factors or the VPM-B etc.), just because an algorithm lets you do what you want to do it does not mean it is safe or correct and the Suunto algorithms are wrong.
 
I'm not sure you're aware that you awakened a 2-year-old thread or not, but:

The Suunto EON Steel does not completely lock the diver out.
The computer getting grumpy and stomping its feet and deciding that it's just going to become a bottom timer is wholly unacceptable....whatever the reason.

If you break your decompression obligation(s) under the algorithm it only locks the algorithm not the computer as a whole (as the data it produces is not sufficiently safe to rely upon for reasonably safe decompression purposes).
[....]
In respect of other computers (i.e. so called technical dive computers which use the Buhlmann ZHL-16 algorithm with gradient factors or the VPM-B etc.), just because an algorithm lets you do what you want to do it does not mean it is safe or correct and the Suunto algorithms are wrong.
This is absolutely an indicator of a poor algorithm....or at least an inadequate programming paradigm. A computer should track what you're doing. The Divesoft Freedom, Ratio iX3M, Petrel/Perdix, etc....they all follow what you do. They'll fuss at you and they might make you acknowledge missed deco stops....but they'll stick with you. They'll keep tracking and do what they can to get you out safely.

I dive with conservative GFs. Let's say there's a shark in the water, or I have to pee, or I tear a seal on my drysuit....and I have 5min of deco left. On my Petrel, I get out of the water, fix the issue, and am good to dive again. I might try not to exert myself excessively, but there's no reason that skipping 5min of deco while diving my GFs should keep me out of the water. On my last dive, the difference between deco on my GF and the Petrel stock GF was more than 5min....does that mean me skipping my last 5min was unsafe? Should my computer whine and cry and scream and turn into a bottom timer? "No" is the only acceptable answer.
 
I'm not sure you're aware that you awakened a 2-year-old thread or not, but:


The computer getting grumpy and stomping its feet and deciding that it's just going to become a bottom timer is wholly unacceptable....whatever the reason.


This is absolutely an indicator of a poor algorithm....or at least an inadequate programming paradigm. A computer should track what you're doing. The Divesoft Freedom, Ratio iX3M, Petrel/Perdix, etc....they all follow what you do. They'll fuss at you and they might make you acknowledge missed deco stops....but they'll stick with you. They'll keep tracking and do what they can to get you out safely.

I dive with conservative GFs. Let's say there's a shark in the water, or I have to pee, or I tear a seal on my drysuit....and I have 5min of deco left. On my Petrel, I get out of the water, fix the issue, and am good to dive again. I might try not to exert myself excessively, but there's no reason that skipping 5min of deco while diving my GFs should keep me out of the water. On my last dive, the difference between deco on my GF and the Petrel stock GF was more than 5min....does that mean me skipping my last 5min was unsafe? Should my computer whine and cry and scream and turn into a bottom timer? "No" is the only acceptable answer.

Yes, fully aware I commented on a 2 year old thread. I didn't think passage of time prevented anyone from posting a reply, certainly this forum didn't.

I can see you clearly disagree with my opinion and that is your right but I would point out ...

(1) The manuals for the mighty Shearwater computers (Petrel/Petrel 2 + Perdix) all state very early on that it is a question of when (not if) they will fail, that the devised have inherent bugs that even Shearwater haven't found / fixed and that the decompression calculations are effectively guesswork -- which I'd say is an unacceptable parameter or programming paradigm or whatever you want to call it.

(2) In respect of the Ratio iX3M, in order for it to do what you say it will do (not lock you out), you have to deactivate the "Deco Violation Control" feature which the manufacturer does not recommend -- which for me proves the point that just because an algorithm "allows" you to do what you want (or can be manipulated to do so) it does not mean it is safe.

----------

Ultimately all any dive computer will do is give you a theoretical reading based on a mathematical algorithm and the reality is there is no best.
 
The Eon is a well built computer, but it has some very big flaws in my opinion. The algorithm is the most problematic, well covered here in this thread. But, i didn't see it mentioned that this thing is HEAVY, which means it more likely flop around. It's charging system is reliant on a dongle that you have to keep with you and is cumbersome.

There's a reason everyone keeps recommending the Shearwater. These problems and many others you've probably never considered have been elegantly solved in the Shearwaters (Perdix, Petrel 2). With a Saft battery, these computers run for weeks of diving...and are the most reliable, usable, well supported computers in the entire dive industry (my limited opinion).
 
@Scubawookiee so you say that the computers that will continue to try to keep you as safe as possible is not as good as one that says "yeah, I'm just going to take a nap and now you have to rely on tables. Can't really do that because I was running on an algorithm that doesn't match up to any tables so you don't know what your tissue loading actually is, but good luck"

Yeah, I follow that logic...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom