If you need to carry much weight don't put all your lead eggs in 1 basket. I really like the DUI weight harness. That weight is ditchable, but is never going to fall out by mistake. Then some in your integrated weight pouches, but not so much that you are out of control if you lose 1 by mistake or failure. Then trim weights as needed. The DUI harness can be adjusted up or down for trim. That is a good thing.
How many of you put most of your weights in the front integrated weight pockets?
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Bob DBF
Contributor
I was diving this morning at La Jolla Shores CA and my dive buddy"s integrated weight (velcro secured) fell out. Thank God we were heading back towards shore and this happened at 20 feet. All I know is, I took a look at my gauge for a second and when I turned to look for my buddy she was gone. She said when her weight fell out she immediately shot up like a rocket!!! She at least remembered to breathe and not hold her breath and were pretty shallow. It brought something to my attention that this could have happened at our 75 foot depth that we were earlier. That is why I wanted to ask for any thoughts or experiences this topic, on what to do if this should occur especially below 30 feet.
Tell me what you think.
Below 30, and deeper is better, you will have more time to react and dump air to slow or stop the ascent. Below 50' with an empty BC I can take my weight belt off and stay at depth, I don't have pockets that ditch. Having weight distributed over your rig will reduce how much can fall out at a time, however there is only so much that will improve your trim.
The problems I have heard about revolve around some of the same issues as other gear problems.
- 1. know the max weight limit of the pocket and do not exceed.
- 2. inspect fastener(s) for wear, damage, and proper operation. Replace as needed.
- 3. insure fastener(s) are properly engaged before splashing.
- 4. Know your gear, improper use, or manipulating the wrong gear can cause a problem or prime the gear for failure.
SCUBA gear will work quite well as long as it is maintained and used properly, I may not care for a particular design and choose a different one for my use, but it is not because the design is faulty. Over the years, the vast majority of my gear problems were due to lax inspection on my part or unfamiliarity with the gear, some were while testing marginal gear, and a very few were because of a true gear failure.
It's an accident, learn and move on. Or, find a weight system that has a different release system, say a clip release however, if you unclip it by accident...
This was a cheap lesson, no one got hurt. Surviving underwater should not be taken lightly, I was lucky that I was trained when diving was dangerous and death could appear after any mistake, because it made me careful of my actions. Now that it is safe it seems no one has to think about proper operation of their gear while diving.
Bob
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NWA395
Contributor
I wanted to find out if there are more divers like me and my dive buddy, on this forum who were taught and still practice the habit of putting most of their weights in the front of their BC. I have asked around to some instructors and dive masters in my area and most agree that this is the best way to use a quick weight ditch system.
I posted earlier on an incident that occurred last weekend :What would you do or has this happened to you with your weights!
I was diving this morning at La Jolla Shores CA and my dive buddy"s integrated weight (velcro secured) fell out. Thank God we were heading back towards shore and this happened at 20 feet. All I know is, I took a look at my gauge for a second and when I turned to look for my buddy she was gone. She said when her weight fell out she immediately shot up like a rocket!!! She at least remembered to breathe and not hold her breath and were pretty shallow. It brought something to my attention that this could have happened at our 75 foot depth that we were earlier. That is why I wanted to ask for any thoughts or experiences this topic, on what to do if this should occur especially below 30 feet.
I received a lot of good advice. The main message from everyone was the importance of proper weight distribution. They did make a lot of sense: on how this would lessen the affect when losing an integrated weight. By having more weights distributed in different areas, when one falls off it won't affect you as much and will not cause you to ascend so quickly. Distributing the weights in different areas allows you to be better balanced as well.
My dilemma is: I want to do something to help divers out their who are convinced in loading most their weights in the front pocket ( of BC) still think it's a good practice. Tell me why you still think this is still good, especially after reading this post.
If you are still not convinced on weight distribution, tell me if you think someone should make a quick release leash, tether or something that could help retrieve the weight in the event of an inadvertent release of the weights. If you think that this is a good idea let me know. I don't care who makes this, I just think those choosing to use their weights the way I was ( and my dive buddy), are risking an accident. Sometimes it's hard to change peoples mind on how they do things especially when they are experienced and have been doing things in a certain way without incident for a while, but it just takes one time to get you to realize how dangerous it can be. It could happen to yourself or someone you know lets try and address this all the way. That is why I thought, if I can't convince them to distribute their weights perhaps I can help them by providing some type of safety measure to their integrated weight system.
Tell me what you think.
I dive a WI BC (Knighthawk). Once I determined needed weight (not over-weighted) based on the exposure protection I was diving, I then played the trial and error method of distributing the weight between front pockets and rear trim pockets to determine which configuration resulted in the best trim.
For me I place approximately 60% of my weight in the back trim pockets and 40% in the front ditchable pockets. Much easier to maintain horizontal trim, which was the deciding factor.
Ditching a single pocket or both will make me positive buoyant with a nice controlled (safety drill) CESA dependent on depth should I need it, but by no means will it send me to the surface.
My suggestion is to have your dive buddy shift the weight around and see where it improves their trim and dive.
Unless over-weighted, you do not have to ditch much to gain positive buoyancy
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I see what you are saying about the more secure type of system like the scuba pro buckle, as well as the rip cord. Your point was well taken. I will ponder on this for a little bit.
I can totally relate with your statement on instructors are only human ... very true.
---------- Post added August 27th, 2014 at 08:19 PM ----------
Well it looks like I will chalk that up as a no. I am getting the feeling no one is really embracing this tether idea to much. I have read so many no's that I am starting to doubt that it is really possible. Well in any case at least some are getting good advice on the most important topic. How to distribute your weights and the importance of checking your gear (in this case -weights-).
---------- Post added August 27th, 2014 at 08:35 PM ----------
You don't have that much weight in each pocket. If you lost a weight on one of those pockets it probably would be manageable. My dive buddy and I were using 10 lbs in each pocket.
If you really want to wear a weight belt may I suggest you look into the padded buttocks shorts, they will solve all your gluteus maximus issues. I can send you a link.
Ricky B
Contributor
"Accidents can happen to anyone" tends to be the mantra of those who are negligent. Of course, I am not saying you were negligent or making excuses for your buddy, but the connotation of "accidents can happen to anyone" is not helpful to your argument. Most accidents are the result of user error. Yes, gear failures do occur, but sometimes they occur because of user negligence or ignorance in maintaining or using the equipment. Sometimes accidents occur because of gear failure followed by user error in responding to the failure. In your buddy's case, it is possible that the loss of the weight was a user error (I don't know and I'm not calling it that). If it was the result of user error, then complicating the gear to compensate for user error is usually the wrong solution. (Simplifying gear to avoid user error can be a good idea, however.) You want a more secure weight pocket? There are already a number of solutions on the market, but adding a tether does not make the pocket more secure.
I think you misunderstand the response to the tether idea. It's not that people think it can't be done. It seems like a good idea to you, but most posters here don't agree. That's not being negative. That's not ignoring that accidents happen. That's not saying it never happens.
The tether idea is a terrible idea. Ditch or don't ditch, but don't ditch and dangle.
Thanks, you just made my day... granted, I don't use a 7mm FJ, but my 26# in a drysuit is a lot for me. And that's with a steel-100, so I'm closer to 32# negative at the end of the dive.
---------- Post added August 28th, 2014 at 02:04 PM ----------
I am at absolutely no risk, I'll be keeping my weight belt
I have been mulling over all the inputs and comments everyone has made and I have com e to the following conclusion, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG!
I have realized (after listening to earlier comments) that the incident was mainly exacerbated due to the depth it all happened.
She was carrying and lost a 10 lbs weight at 20 feet, and it made her go up way to fast for her do anything, even after dumping her air. If this would have occurred at our earlier depth of 75 feet, it would NOT have had such a dramatic impact, such as an uncontrollable ascent.
In my opinion I think that both type of weight practices (weight distribution and the front loading of weights) I have their valid points. I believe that the Instructors that favored using mainly the integrated weights are correct in this point: The weights can be easily ditched and that the dangerous condition which I was concerned with, rising up to quickly at depth (lets say 50 feet or below) would not be such an uncontrollable situation. On the other hand some weight distribution is also important because their is a limit to the amount of weights you should put in those integrated pockets. Besides this will also add overall balance instead of having so much weight all in the front.
As far as the tether idea I am happy to say everyone did have valid points on this one.
I have concluded that a safety tether is not needed and I abandoned the idea all together.
I am also focusing on making a few changes to my weight practices I feel less concerned because knowing the facts of how losing a weight at depth ( the deeper the less affect) is a manageable situation, and thus was my main concern. Thanks to everyone for clearing things up.
There was another similar thread recently, not sure if everyone here read that one, so I'll repeat myself a bit. Apologies to anyone who participated in the other thread.
I think that excessively focusing on things like release mechanisms is somewhat of a distraction from the main concepts about weighting. IMO, the majority of your weight should be non-ditchable (which includes things like a steel tank and backplate, as well as weight added to the rig). I understand that not everyone can or wants to dive that configuration, but certainly a dry suit diver or someone with a lot of neoprene should consider this if possible. In the tropics with a 3 mm shorty and an AL80, it's less of an issue.
I can think of three main reasons why you would want to release your weights.
1) Some sort of emergency on the surface where the diver can't maintain positive buoyancy (wing failure, panicking diver, medical problem). Note that this might be done by someone other than the diver.
2) If you are wearing a very heavy wetsuit that loses a lot of buoyancy at depth, then you might be relatively overweighted on the bottom just to have enough to get you to sink from the surface (where your buoyancy is greater). If you are in that situation, and THEN you have a wing (or BC bladder) failure, you might not be able to swim your rig up from depth without dropping some weight. This would be a very unusual situation, and in that situation you should try to drop weight in as small increments as possible, to avoid an uncontrolled ascent. Unless you ALSO had a problem with gas supply (wow, that would be a bad day, huh?), you would probably have time to remove individual weight pockets - definitely not a situation where you would want to immediately ditch all of your ballast. Ideally, a good balanced rig will not put you in this situation, and well distributed weight would allow you to just ditch a small percentage of your total ballast.
3) A situation where a diver had an extreme medical emergency and needed to be blown to the surface quickly (seizure, unresponsive at depth, etc..). In that case, the rescuing diver wouldn't risk a quick ascent, and it would basically be a choice between certain death (staying in the water) and near certain death (sending the diver to the surface). Even if the diver's BC was working, you would probably release the weights to give him the best chance of staying on the surface until help arrived. Don't forget to tie him to your reel, and be ready to let go of that reel or cut the line if it jams.
So there is virtually NEVER a reason to dump weights at depth, if you are properly weighted. I think that a lot of new divers (especially those that are taught the sloppy technique of overweighting and BC compensation) have the idea that the weight release is like an ejector seat in an aircraft - something that you will need to deploy instantly to escape from a sudden emergency. That simply isn't the case.
It is a very rare situation where weighting is such that you would actually need to ditch ballast to be able to make an ascent. In tech training, we are taught options for redundant buoyancy in case of drysuit or wing failure, but even then that's only an issue if for some reason you are carrying a lot of negatively buoyant gear. AND, in that situation, it is very important NOT to ditch a significant amount weight since an uncontrolled ascent with a deco obligation is even more dangerous (beyond the scope of this discussion). A properly weighed recreational diver that isn't carrying heavy stage bottles, canister batteries, etc... shouldn't find themselves in a situation where they just can't swim their rig off the bottom (maybe a deep dive with a LOT of neoprene, see #2 above).
But as has been pointed out upthread, you definitely should be able to ditch weights on the surface. Lots of stories of people who made it to the surface after some sort of emergency but then sank again and were found with their weights in place. And as the OP now has realized, tethering the weights in that case would make a bad situation worse.
I think that excessively focusing on things like release mechanisms is somewhat of a distraction from the main concepts about weighting. IMO, the majority of your weight should be non-ditchable (which includes things like a steel tank and backplate, as well as weight added to the rig). I understand that not everyone can or wants to dive that configuration, but certainly a dry suit diver or someone with a lot of neoprene should consider this if possible. In the tropics with a 3 mm shorty and an AL80, it's less of an issue.
I can think of three main reasons why you would want to release your weights.
1) Some sort of emergency on the surface where the diver can't maintain positive buoyancy (wing failure, panicking diver, medical problem). Note that this might be done by someone other than the diver.
2) If you are wearing a very heavy wetsuit that loses a lot of buoyancy at depth, then you might be relatively overweighted on the bottom just to have enough to get you to sink from the surface (where your buoyancy is greater). If you are in that situation, and THEN you have a wing (or BC bladder) failure, you might not be able to swim your rig up from depth without dropping some weight. This would be a very unusual situation, and in that situation you should try to drop weight in as small increments as possible, to avoid an uncontrolled ascent. Unless you ALSO had a problem with gas supply (wow, that would be a bad day, huh?), you would probably have time to remove individual weight pockets - definitely not a situation where you would want to immediately ditch all of your ballast. Ideally, a good balanced rig will not put you in this situation, and well distributed weight would allow you to just ditch a small percentage of your total ballast.
3) A situation where a diver had an extreme medical emergency and needed to be blown to the surface quickly (seizure, unresponsive at depth, etc..). In that case, the rescuing diver wouldn't risk a quick ascent, and it would basically be a choice between certain death (staying in the water) and near certain death (sending the diver to the surface). Even if the diver's BC was working, you would probably release the weights to give him the best chance of staying on the surface until help arrived. Don't forget to tie him to your reel, and be ready to let go of that reel or cut the line if it jams.
So there is virtually NEVER a reason to dump weights at depth, if you are properly weighted. I think that a lot of new divers (especially those that are taught the sloppy technique of overweighting and BC compensation) have the idea that the weight release is like an ejector seat in an aircraft - something that you will need to deploy instantly to escape from a sudden emergency. That simply isn't the case.
It is a very rare situation where weighting is such that you would actually need to ditch ballast to be able to make an ascent. In tech training, we are taught options for redundant buoyancy in case of drysuit or wing failure, but even then that's only an issue if for some reason you are carrying a lot of negatively buoyant gear. AND, in that situation, it is very important NOT to ditch a significant amount weight since an uncontrolled ascent with a deco obligation is even more dangerous (beyond the scope of this discussion). A properly weighed recreational diver that isn't carrying heavy stage bottles, canister batteries, etc... shouldn't find themselves in a situation where they just can't swim their rig off the bottom (maybe a deep dive with a LOT of neoprene, see #2 above).
But as has been pointed out upthread, you definitely should be able to ditch weights on the surface. Lots of stories of people who made it to the surface after some sort of emergency but then sank again and were found with their weights in place. And as the OP now has realized, tethering the weights in that case would make a bad situation worse.
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I can think of a fourth reason why you would want to release your weights.
4) If you dive from a (small) boat and are wearing quite a bit of weight due to heavy exposure protection (drysuit with thick undergarments, 7+7 mil wetsuit), the total weight of the rig plus weights starts to get quite high¹. With such a configuration, climbing aboard can be a bit of a chore, whether you dive from a hard hull boat with a less-than-ideal ladder, or from a smallish RIB or SIB, perhaps without a ladder. In those situations, being able to doff some ten kilos or so of weights and hand that to the boat tender before getting aboard can make it a lot easier to get out of the water.
BTW, I think both DAN and BSAC have ample data indicating that your reason 1) is responsible for quite a few diving fatalities...
¹ I, as an example, use from 15 to 18 kilos total weight (depending on tank type) with a steel tank when I'm in my trilam suit and my winter undergarments. And I'm not particularly overweighted...
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