7D vs G-12 .. is it worth it ?

[azscubadude]

I am hoping the 7D users will chime in on something I've been fighting with myself about for over a year.


Background..


I am now shooting with a G-12 in Ikelite housing, dual DS-161 strobes and Sola 600 focus light. I mention the above only to show that I am hooked to Ikelite and haven't had any problem with the housing with over 100 dives on it.


I've taken a lot of photos with the G-12 and while I find it a nice set-up I also find that it takes a lot more work to get good results, especially since I have to wear a bi-focal dive mask. As good as the G-12 is for macro it doesn't come close to the detail that can be captured with a DSLR and Macro lens.


The G-12 does travel well and I can fit just about everything into one carry on bag.


Here is a sample gallery of shots I've taken with the G-12 so you can judge for yourself what the G-12 can do. Cozumel-March-2011 - Prescott Outdoors' Photos | SmugMug


So here is my dilemma..


Since I do a lot of other photography I already own a 7D body as well as both the Tokina 10-17 and 12-24. All I would need to add would be the 7D Ikelite housing, Macro lens (or lenses), maybe a 16-35 as well as domes and ports. And, since I already own most other required strobes, arms, etc, (used on the G-12 kit) the additional costs wouldn't be like buying everything from scratch. I take my photography very serious and would love to see the results I could capture with the 7D and good lenses.


I've thought about waiting a bit to see what the new G1X holds, but from all I read it is a real toss up at this point in time, especially for UW macro shooters. It would still involve buying another new housing plus a new camera. And no matter how you look at it, the G1X is still a P&S camera.


I only get in a couple dive trips a year to the Caribbean but I tend to stay from 10 days to 2 weeks at a time. I am older and am struggling with the hassles of all the added gear I would have to carry over the G-12 (dome, ports, lenses) plus laptop and related gear. The way I see it, it would require me to add a checked bag since the carry on I now use for the G-12 is stuffed to the max and I could never get the domes, ports and lenses, especially the 8 inch dome in a legal carry on bag. Since I would have to check the gear rather than carry it on, it would require a Pelican case for the gear rather than the carry on I am using now.


I hesitate to upgrade only because of the above as well as the added weight and hassle of lugging the extra gear. Since I travel as a single diver the gear can't be divided up between two people and two sets of bags. What makes it even worse is I can't get a flight out of Phoenix to anywhere in the Caribbean without a one night layover in Houston.. this means I have to claim my bags in Houston, lug them all to a hotel and lug them back to recheck everything the following morning (not fun even with 3 bags). Traveling with the new gear means I would have 4 bags. Four bags and two arms doesn't make for easy travel through airports and customs, even with an airport cart and is a very easy target to get something stolen.

Sometimes the fun can turn into so much of a hassle it isn't really worth it..


This is why my thread was names.. Is it worth it !!


Any comments from anyone that has stepped up from a P&S to a DSLR would be appreciated. Sorry for the very long post.

 

[smellzlikefish]

I just upgraded to a T1i DSLR underwater from a G12 and haven't looked back. The increased focus speed and accuracy, more lens options, and better overall picture quality make my pictures now uncomparable to the ones I was taking with the G12 and earlier P and S's. Of course, I average three dives per week and am a young guy.

The drawback for me at first was the learning curve of stepping up. I had owned and used the T1i for years on land, but there are a number of nuance differences underwater that ade all the difference in the first few months.

I find the added weight and bulk of a DSLR are only an issue when I am shore diving as we have to hike, in some cases, for a long way over many rocks. If you are boat diving, the added weight isn't an issue. Underwater the extra bulk somehow vanishes.

I still have my G12 but haven't used it since I upgraded. I'd love to mount it to the top of my DSLR housing for video capability, but alas, time for such a project is tight right now.

 

[mjh]

No contest between the two. As mentioned the 7D is a significantly better camera. There will always be a "new" camera coming out supposedly "better, lighter, more amazing than anything in existence" LOL. If budget is not an issue and you can wait for housings to follow great. If not the 7D is a heck of a camera and really the camera is not the limiting factor Yes it means more gear now. Yes your luggage weight is going to increase, and there is the possibility of paying overweight charges. But come on, for a trips that cost $$$$s what is an extra $$? FYI I fit my whole DSLR setup, plus laptop in my carryon Tenba - Shootout: Large Rolling Backpack Sure it weights 30lbs but it has been rare any airline calls me on it.

Yes it adds a level of complication but once you are underwater it will all be worth it.

 

[chris196]

My bro-in-law went from an Ikelite housing to a Auquatica for his Nikon D300. He has the tokina 10-17FE and the 60MM macro. He loves the smaller size and portability of it all. He still uses his 2 DS125s with a converter on the Aquatica. He can carry on the whole shooting match where he couldn't with the Ike housing and ports.

Are you absolutely married to Ike and Canon?
Another option is to sell your current setup, including strobes and then go the M4/3 route. The olympus solution is really nice or if you want to spend extra money, go panasonic with a nauticam housing.
Pair either one with a pair of Inon S2000s or S&S YS01. You would significantly decrease your travel profile while increasing your photo ability over the G12.
I have the EPL-2 and was recently on a trip with my bro-in-law. You would be amazed that there isn't that much difference between the EPL2 and the D300. And I was only shooting with a single D2000.

Now, the 7D is better than M4/3, but M4/3 is closer in image quality to the 7D than the G12 is to the M4/3.
I only bring this all up because you bring up travel profile. M4/3 currently is the best option for IQ versus travel profile.
I think you have to make that fundamental decision of IQ versus hassle.
I'd bet that coming from a G12, you'd be more than happy with the IQ of a M4/3 camera.

 

[M_Bipartitus]

Looking at many of your photos you linked to, I notice you have a number of shots of smaller fish and towards the macro end of UW photos. One point to consider id depth of field for the two cameras. Your G12 will have more depth of field and may have more consistently in-focus shots. The 7D, while capable of focusing faster will have less of the scene in focus at the same settings. If you wanted to get a similar depth of field from the 7D you would need to use a smaller aperture and turn the strobes up. This could result in a longer recycle time for the strobes.

I happen to like a "shallow" depth of field so that the background is out of focus. For this reason I went with a 5D full frame DSLR when choosing my UW camera. There is a tendency to have more shots that I reject for focus, but I really like the results when it works out. For example, here is a shot that took me several attempts to get. (most had only portions of the Royal Gramma in focus)

For myself, a 5D user, I get nearly all my camera gear as carry-on luggage. It can be done. I typically fit

Roller carry-on:
2 DS-125s with attached arms
5D in Ikelite case, wrapped in clothes
17-40 zoom in port, wrapped in clothes
100mm Macro in port, wrapped in clothes
2 dive regulator sets
Flash (for land)
24-70 Zoom
Spare batteries

I also take a Lowe-Pro waterproof backpack that fits under the seat
Backup body
Second Flash
70-200 zoom
400mm f5.6, if space allows
Diverite canister light (overkill, but I like it)*
Filters
Small stuff (memory cards, extra lens caps...)
Some cables
Reading material, travel documents, in-flight snacks

About the only camera stuff that gets checked is large battery chargers (i.e. DS-125 charger). Sometimes I'll put the strobe arms & camera handle/tray in checked luggage as these are hard to break.

I guess I ask myself "What do I need of my own gear and what could I use from rental / buy if I needed to? Most of the components of my camera system are needed to get good photos (vs renting some cheap P&S) I would much prefer to have my own regulators/dive computer, so they are in the carry-on. My BC, for example, I could easily rent If my bags don't make it, so that gets checked.

I normally don't bring my laptop, as loss or damage would be too much a risk for me. I have considered getting a netbook for travel, however.

* the canister light really confused one TSA agent, but he was OK with it after I explained what it was and showed him that it worked.

 

[bullshark]

Your G12 will have more depth of field and may have more consistently in-focus shots.

I don't think that's right. Depth of field is a function of lens, focal length, and F-stop. The DSLR could have insanely more or insanely less than the G12 with its very limited aperture controls. So to say that 7D DOF (without specifying lens) will compare to the G12 in any way is not really possible. Strobe recycle time is insignificant compared to internal flash recycle time on G11/12. Modern strobes recycle very quickly and I wouldn't turn them up, I let TTL decide how much to use. I might turn them down for a special effect though, or alternatively depress the exposure with EV dial. In other words, the recycle time on a full-dump strobe exposure will still be way faster than a G12 re-pumping its internal flash. Both of these with G11:

 

[azscubadude]

Thanks guys for the great comments, they are much appreciated.

I just upgraded to a T1i DSLR underwater from a G12 and haven't looked back. The increased focus speed and accuracy, more lens options, and better overall picture quality make my pictures now uncomparable to the ones I was taking with the G12.

I find the added weight and bulk of a DSLR are only an issue when I am shore diving as we have to hike, in some cases, for a long way over many rocks. If you are boat diving, the added weight isn't an issue. Underwater the extra bulk somehow vanishes.

I agree that underwater the weight is minimal. Even if it isn't you can add floats to even it out. My problem is more in the traveling to and then home from the resort and shuffling bags along the way.

No contest between the two. As mentioned the 7D is a significantly better camera. There will always be a "new" camera coming out supposedly "better, lighter, more amazing than anything in existence" LOL. If budget is not an issue and you can wait for housings to follow great. If not the 7D is a heck of a camera and really the camera is not the limiting factor Yes it means more gear now. Yes your luggage weight is going to increase, and there is the possibility of paying overweight charges.

My problem is that from Phoenix to Cozumel (one example) I am stuck with Continental, unless I want to do a tour of the whole USA to get there. Most other airlines I could take would first take me from Phoenix to either Chicago, Newark or Atlanta or would you believe San Francisco ?? before heading back to Houston. With multiple plane changes and stops the chance of loosing a bag or two or having things stolen goes up exponentially. Continental now charges $200.00 each way (total added $400.00 per trip) PER bag over 50 pounds, so a 51 pound bag costs almost more than the original flight. I've seen other divers fly non stop from Toronto to Cozumel in a matter of a few hours. From Phoenix it is a two day trip.

My bro-in-law went from an Ikelite housing to a Auquatica for his Nikon D300. He has the tokina 10-17FE and the 60MM macro. He loves the smaller size and portability of it all. He still uses his 2 DS125s with a converter on the Aquatica. He can carry on the whole shooting match where he couldn't with the Ike housing and ports.

Are you absolutely married to Ike and Canon?

As of now I plan on sticking to the Canon. I've got a lot invested in my DS-161 strobes, arms, etc (a lot more than the housing cost). I've looked at the other housings and haven't ruled them out yet but I haven't found anything that I really like. I've had great luck in the past (and present) with Ikelite. Never had a flood or even a slight leak. Nothing has ever close to a failure.

Looking at many of your photos you linked to, I notice you have a number of shots of smaller fish and towards the macro end of UW photos. One point to consider id depth of field for the two cameras. Your G12 will have more depth of field and may have more consistently in-focus shots. The 7D, while capable of focusing faster will have less of the scene in focus at the same settings. If you wanted to get a similar depth of field from the 7D you would need to use a smaller aperture and turn the strobes up. This could result in a longer recycle time for the strobes.

I happen to like a "shallow" depth of field so that the background is out of focus. For this reason I went with a 5D full frame DSLR when choosing my UW camera. There is a tendency to have more shots that I reject for focus, but I really like the results when it works out. For example, here is a shot that took me several attempts to get.

It's a toss up for me on wide angle vs. macro. I like to do both and enjoy the capture of little critters as much or more than a shark (been there done that). Spending a whole tank of air searching a small area on a shore dive reveals so many critters it's amazing. I'm sure you've captured shots and have people comment that.. "I've never seen one of those".

As far as Bokeh goes I know it well and have captured some fabulous photos through the years with incredible Bokeh. That is one of the reasons I've thought about switching to my 7D, to capture some shots like these (only underwater)..

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[M_Bipartitus]

Those are some nice bird shots

I don't think that's right. Depth of field is a function of lens, focal length, and F-stop. The DSLR could have insanely more or insanely less than the G12 with its very limited aperture controls.

I'm well aware of the many factors, but to achieve a similar focal length & perspective, the DSLR will normally have less depth of field. It can be very difficult to get really shallow depth of field on a P&S. Based on azscubadudes's bird shots, I suspect he is well aware of the advantages of DSLR in the areas of depth of field (more control with shallower DOF possible) and Bokeh (generally more pleasing look).

... Strobe recycle time is insignificant compared to internal flash recycle time on G11/12. Modern strobes recycle very quickly and I wouldn't turn them up, I let TTL decide how much to use. ...

When I said "turn up the strobe" I could have just as easily said that "the TTL will turn up the strobe". If it happened to be that a similar depth of field for any given shot required shooting at f5.6 on the G12 and a f16 on a 7D*, the strobes will be working a lot harder with the 7D than they would be working with the G12. The exposure requires 8 times as much light from the strobe. The internal flash recycle time is irrelevant.


* based on a subject distance of 2 feet, with 65mm on a 7D at f16, DOF = .16 feet. Same subject at 23mm (equivalent to 65 on the 7D) on a G12 at f5.6 (DOF = .18 feet)

 

[bkkchris]

I had a G10 for a bit but also had a 7D already as well. The G10 was a great and capable camera, but I always had the desire to house the 7D. Finally did and it has been a mixed experience, but overall very positive.

I have found that if you pack smart, and edit what lenses/ports you bring, I can get everything I need (10-17mm, 100mm, small dome, macro port, 2x Z240's, etc.) in carry on with some room to spare.

Shooting the 7D underwater is a great experience but much more complex and frustrating than the pretty straightforward point-n-shoot way of shooting. But in the end also much more rewarding.

I imagine a lot of the experience would have to do with what housing you end up buying for the 7D. I find the Nauticam I went with actually easier in some ways to control the camera than the camera on its own.

 

[azscubadude]

Those are some nice bird shots

* based on a subject distance of 2 feet, with 65mm on a 7D at f16, DOF = .16 feet. Same subject at 23mm (equivalent to 65 on the 7D) on a G12 at f5.6 (DOF = .18 feet)

Thanks for the compliment on the shots.

I found a DOF iPad app that seems to be pretty accurate. It rounds the numbers at very short distances but it's close enough.

The iPad app lets you set up two cameras so I set up the 7D at 65mm f/16 and took a screen and then moved it to 24mm (no 23) and used the G12 at 24mm f/5.6 and took another screen shot. It still shows both cameras in both screen shots.

For some reason rather than showing 2 feet it shows 1'-12", must be the value they used when converting from metric to imperial (which you can use both).

The same app works on both the iPad and iPhone but the iPhone only displays one camera at a time (screen space) so it's a little easier to read in this instance. Got the app for $1.99. Seemed to be the best DOF app on iTunes.

Canon 7D 65mm at 2' f/16 (the G12 only goes to f/8 so can't compare both on this one)(the 7D is shown on the top row of each f/stop)
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Canon G12 24mm at 2' f/5.6
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Canon 7D 65mm at 2' f/16
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Canon G12 24mm at 2' f/5.6
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