Question Practicing Out Of Air ascent: good idea, or bad idea ?

[TMHeimer]

I have mixed feelings about this. I used to think it needed to be removed. Now, I am not sure. I have given it a lot of thought and I do feel that if we teach good gas management, proper dive planning and a buddy positioning, it should not be needed.

When I say good buddy positioning, I believe new divers should have to swim 15 meters after an exhale to retrieve gas from a buddy. This shows them that staying closer to your buddy is key in reducing risk.

Having said that, I can see circumstances where a CESA might be needed. Diver A gets caught in a current and pulled away from Diver B. Diver A then has a catastrophic failure. But I also wonder what the likely of this event happening is as it seems to be a perfect storm.

I suppose my answer is that I need to think it through more before I settle on a position.

I see what you're saying and agree for sure. And yes, I agree that any of these situations that may call for a CESA would be that "perfect storm". I would guess you'd lean toward keeping it regarding solo diving? I do practice it from 20/30 feet now & again as these are my usual depths these days. Not needing my pony for those depths, I get peace of mind knowing that if that perfect storm ever happened I could easily get to the surface. That's the only reason I practice it-- at some point I'm surfacing anyway (well, hopefully) so why not?.

 

[VikingDives]

You seem to assume that they have great SAC rates because of the smoking. It is more likely that they have great SAC rates in spite of the smoking. Their rates would likely be even better if they did not smoke.

John, not saying I disagree with you, but the alternative hypothesis is equally valid in the absence of evidence.

I'm not going to be rude to you like you were to me when I expressed an opinion recently, but: What evidence do you have to support your claim?

 

[MidOH]

I have mixed feelings about this. I used to think it needed to be removed. Now, I am not sure. I have given it a lot of thought and I do feel that if we teach good gas management, proper dive planning and a buddy positioning, it should not be needed.

When I say good buddy positioning, I believe new divers should have to swim 15 meters after an exhale to retrieve gas from a buddy. This shows them that staying closer to your buddy is key in reducing risk.

Having said that, I can see circumstances where a CESA might be needed. Diver A gets caught in a current and pulled away from Diver B. Diver A then has a catastrophic failure. But I also wonder what the likely of this event happening is as it seems to be a perfect storm.

I suppose my answer is that I need to think it through more before I settle on a position.

Over here, Id avoid using the buddy, unless I had to. Id rather cesa.

Even with the better instabuddies, its up to diver A, to stay within range of their buddy, if they want to use that buddy as a redundant air source. Because diver B ain't going to do the same.

And the Air2 inflators make everything worse. Diver B has no idea he needs to primary donate because of his Air2. Or he's going to forget in a real emergency.

Reg failure on an OW NDL dive, = cesa. Ive practiced cesa's up to my safety stop. Its no big deal. If I can clearly see the surface, no boat traffic, no current or drift, cesa is always my first option.

If Im too deep to see the surface, Im sticking closer to my idiot buddy, or preferably, carrying a bailout bottle. I've never seen any issues on the deep leg of any OW dive, though.

Practicing cesa's is way easier than dealing with buddies.

 

[happy-diver]

Yeah I'll keep my gear in top nick and all that other stuff you can stick

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

We are not solo diving with a single tank and a j-valve that sometimes gets knocked open.

With redundancy/proper buddy skills, and gas planning, I don't see the value of teaching (C)ESA.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, not saying I disagree with you, but the alternative hypothesis is equally valid in the absence of evidence.

I'm not going to be rude to you like you were to me when I expressed an opinion recently, but: What evidence do you have to support your claim?

Your assumption is that people who smoke have better SAC rates because they smoke, something that flies in the face of the obvious damage being done to the lungs. I have doubted that it is true and said that these people could have had even better SAC rates if they had not smoked.

You are the one asserting a positive assertion, and I am doubting it. I am the one saying there is no proof of your positive assertion. In terms of logic, the burden of proof is on you. It is up to you to provide proof that smokers have better SAC rates to begin with. Since I am essentially saying that there is no proof to support your claim, I cannot provide evidence that there is no evidence. That would not be possible.

 

[VikingDives]

Your assumption is that people who smoke have better SAC rates because they smoke, something that flies in the face of the obvious damage being done to the lungs. I have doubted that it is true and said that these people could have had even better SAC rates if they had not smoked.

You are the one asserting a positive assertion, and I am doubting it. I am the one saying there is no proof of your positive assertion. In terms of logic, the burden of proof is on you. It is up to you to provide proof that smokers have better SAC rates to begin with. Since I am essentially saying that there is no proof to support your claim, I cannot provide evidence that there is no evidence. That would not be possible.

You're confusing me with @CT-Rich. All I'm saying is that your claim is as dubious as his, given the lack of evidence to the contrary. As far as positive assertions go, perhaps you should reread your own post, because you're making assertions as well, when you say something is more likely...

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I see what you're saying and agree for sure. And yes, I agree that any of these situations that may call for a CESA would be that "perfect storm". I would guess you'd lean toward keeping it regarding solo diving? I do practice it from 20/30 feet now & again as these are my usual depths these days. Not needing my pony for those depths, I get peace of mind knowing that if that perfect storm ever happened I could easily get to the surface. That's the only reason I practice it-- at some point I'm surfacing anyway (well, hopefully) so why not?.

Solo diving is about redundancy so I do not see the need for a CESA. But I also see that you solo dive in shallow waters so for you I guess it makes sense.

Where I am currently living, solo diving is illegal so it isn't really something I think about. But I also dive sidemount almost exclusively so I have the redundancy needed. This comes in handy when guiding divers I don't know. I have no idea what their real skill level is until we get in the water and even then, I would have no clue as to how well they were trained for emergencies and how often they have practiced OOG donation post-course. I refuse to rely on them so sidemount it is.

 

[TMHeimer]

Solo diving is about redundancy so I do not see the need for a CESA. But I also see that you solo dive in shallow waters so for you I guess it makes sense.

Where I am currently living, solo diving is illegal so it isn't really something I think about. But I also dive sidemount almost exclusively so I have the redundancy needed. This comes in handy when guiding divers I don't know. I have no idea what their real skill level is until we get in the water and even then, I would have no clue as to how well they were trained for emergencies and how often they have practiced OOG donation post-course. I refuse to rely on them so sidemount it is.

Agree. I don't dive deep solo. Always have a buddy. If below 80' I also take the pony.

 

[CT-Rich]

You're confusing me with @CT-Rich. All I'm saying is that your claim is as dubious as his, given the lack of evidence to the contrary. As far as positive assertions go, perhaps you should reread your own post, because you're making assertions as well, when you say something is more likely...

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