Is a Pony Bottle too complicated for a beginner?

[Hartattack]

Wow, you must be hilarious at parties. You realize a lot of dives are done on the fly. I know where I am going, but not necessarily what I am going to do when I get there. The “learn to dive doubles” argument makes no sense for 90% of divers. Not every diver is interested in wearing doubles and might not expect to be within arms reach of their buddy at all times. The idea of a pony is not about having enough air but having redundancy in the event of a catastrophic failure. I would never dive if I was going to plan every dive like it was the Andrea Doria. If you enjoy the complexities of being a tech diver and like to calculate and plan every dive, god bless, but there is plenty to see on a single tank.

I am a hoot at parties, sir, lol. Nevertheless, you proved my point(s) with this statement: "The idea of a pony is not about having enough air but having redundancy in the event of a catastrophic failure."

1. Doubles are much easier to carry and create a balanced rig for weighting. (Considering most divers are over/underweighted anyways, imagine now adding an AL40 to that configuration on one side, oof.)

2. If a recreational diver knows how to calculate their minimum gas correctly, they would know how much gas they would need in a case of an emergency to get them or both them and their buddy to the surface. E,g a single AL80's minimum gas to 80ft would be ~ 1000psi with a ~ distressed SCR. So, to be safe, the buddy team would call the dive when one of them reached 1000psi in their tank as a level of conservatism, risk mitigation, and psychological safety


* "~" = according to the hypothetical diver team's surface consumption rate E.g. 0.75, 0.80. 1.0 cuft per minute.


Folks can dive however they want; I don't care—but when there is a better solution to a common problem, I'll share what I have learned that might help in a forum such as this.

 

[Hartattack]

This is a newbie forum, those considering diving shouldn’t be expected to go tech before AOW.

I am so stealing this line. It may take a years to find the right moment to use it, but I a. Stealing it.

No one is saying to go tech. Learning how to calculate your gas is open water skills 101; why folks in this thread are against this is a little concerning. Moreover, diving doubles is not Tech diving.

However, IMHO, "pony's" are considered "Tech" because now one has allowed themself to pick up a single staged tank at a shop that might not have been analyzed correctly or analyzed at all. Let's consider that the open water diver does not know about analyzing their gas or diving different gas mixtures. This mistake could lead to picking up a tank that has the possibility of deadly consequences more so than having one set of doubles or a single 80 filled, especially at a busy shop that also does tech and rec diving.

Nevertheless, all I am advocating here in a New Diver thread is for those who ask essential questions, as OP has, to continue asking these questions and urge on the side of human factors and safety. If that makes me uncool, so be it.

 

[tursiops]

Folks can dive however they want; I don't care—but when there is a better solution to a common problem, I'll share what I have learned that might help in a forum such as this.

Well, this is the forum for new divers, and for those who are not even certified yet. Many things you've learned are just not yet applicable. I suggest that doubles are among them.
One old but good rule is to tell someone what they need to know, not everything you know.

 

[CT-Rich]

I am a hoot at parties, sir, lol. Nevertheless, you proved my point(s) with this statement: "The idea of a pony is not about having enough air but having redundancy in the event of a catastrophic failure."

1. Doubles are much easier to carry and create a balanced rig for weighting. (Considering most divers are over/underweighted anyways, imagine now adding an AL40 to that configuration on one side, oof.)

2. If a recreational diver knows how to calculate their minimum gas correctly, they would know how much gas they would need in a case of an emergency to get them or both them and their buddy to the surface. E,g a single AL80's minimum gas to 80ft would be ~ 1000psi with a ~ distressed SCR. So, to be safe, the buddy team would call the dive when one of them reached 1000psi in their tank as a level of conservatism, risk mitigation, and psychological safety


* "~" = according to the hypothetical diver team's surface consumption rate E.g. 0.75, 0.80. 1.0 cuft per minute.


Folks can dive however they want; I don't care—but when there is a better solution to a common problem, I'll share what I have learned that might help in a forum such as this.

Doubles are much easier to carry? I dive steel 120s just so I DON’T need doubles.

Most divers are over/under weighted? Well, that covers just about everybody with exception for a five minute period mid dive.

I wear a seatbelt as redundancy to my safe driving skills. I also don’t know how the other drivers on the road will behave in all situations. I don’t keep a bicycle or a can of gas in the trunk. I could, but for most driving the seatbelt be adequate precaution. Knowing how long my air cylinder SHOULD last is less important than knowing how it IS lasting.

Doubles don’t add redundancy, unless they are independent doubles. The freak out factor of a blown out o-ring or free flowing regulator isn’t going to be better if you double the weight of your kit. It will however give the careless diver plenty of air to go into deco. If they aren’t watching their pressure, they aren’t watching their depth or time. I don’t bother with a pony unless I need to, I don’t have a problem saying to the OP you can learn to sling a pony early as long as you understand the why and the how.

If they want more air, no extra or special training is required to bring a bigger tank in the water, but a pony isn’t more air, it is an extra air source (should not be included in gas planning).

 

[tursiops]

I am new to scuba diving with only a couple dives under my belt. I am a little OCD and tend to pay attention to my gauge more than enjoying the dive as I am always worried about my pressure. I have a 13cf pony bottle. Would being a new diver and having the pony tank connected to my main tank for the piece of mind confuse me and be tougher for me starting out? When I started paramotoring, they recommended not flying with a reserve because it is more likely to accidentally deploy and cause more problems.

Since you are no longer a completely new diver, I'd say the pony can't hurt and only has to help once to be incredibly useful. Best practice is larger than a 13, however, up to even a 40. For me, a 19 is the smallest worth bothering with. Sling it. Keep it turned on, so there are no delays if needed. If you are not using a necklaced secondary, then do that with your pony reg. Ignore all the suggestions to "just" use sidemount or back-mount doubles....that is overkill for your diving, has its own issues, costs more, and is awkward to handle. You are looking for a redundant air supply to get you to the surface if your primary should fail. That's it. You don't need super solutions to diving modes you are not yet interested in dealing with like extra long bottom times or deco dives. You are hungry for a snack; have a snack. Ignore the suggestions that a full steak dinner will be cheaper in the long run or better for you. It is not dinner time, bro.

 

[CT-Rich]

No one is saying to go tech. Learning how to calculate your gas is open water skills 101; why folks in this thread are against this is a little concerning. Moreover, diving doubles is not Tech diving.

However, IMHO, "pony's" are considered "Tech" because now one has allowed themself to pick up a single staged tank at a shop that might not have been analyzed correctly or analyzed at all. Let's consider that the open water diver does not know about analyzing their gas or diving different gas mixtures. This mistake could lead to picking up a tank that has the possibility of deadly consequences more so than having one set of doubles or a single 80 filled, especially at a busy shop that also does tech and rec diving.

Nevertheless, all I am advocating here in a New Diver thread is for those who ask essential questions, as OP has, to continue asking these questions and urge on the side of human factors and safety. If that makes me uncool, so be it.

The point of an OW diver being given a limit of 60’ is to keep diving safe and simple while mastering the basics. A typical newbie diver will learn to monitor depth, air and time without fear of going into accidental deco (not impossible, but not likely). I think you are the first person who I have seen that would consider a pony as tech, but not doubles.

Not every diver needs to know their SAC. It’s handy, but not essential. I have never calculated mine (in 1980 the stuff to do it accurately was not worth the trouble). I would hate for a reader in this forum to think that they can’t have an enjoyable experience in the water unless they master calculating their SAC and can lift twin 80s (or could afford them).

 

[CT-Rich]

Sadly, I am not following any of your logic with this post; we agree to disagree. With that said, this statement did catch my eye: "should not be included in gas planning" Humor me, why shouldn't you calculate all of your gas usable in planning your dives?


Also, full disclaimer, please let us know if you are a dive professional or instructor before you answer this question on a new diver thread.

Let’s see, diving since 1980, so I suppose I have nothing to offer.

Kind of scary that you don’t have a clear understanding of redundancy. I have a BCD to control my buoyancy. I use it to go up and down. If it fails, I can add air to my drysuit. In an emergency, I could drop lead, again not my first choice, but an option. I don’t want to do that because it is harder to control how floaty I am, but in a pinch, it will work. That is redundancy. I don’t plan on ending a dive with 300 psi because if my buddy needs it, I don’t have enough to share and if I am delayed, I don’t have enough for myself. I have two cutting tools in case I drop or can’t reach one. I shouldn’t need the second blade, but just in case….

A pony is extra air that I or a buddy MIGHT need, but I will never plan on using it unless things have gone sideways. That is redundancy.

 

[Angelo Farina]

This also begs the question. When did back-mounted doubles become advanced diving?

I would reverse your question: when did back-mounted single become a common choice? When i started, in 1975, there were ONLY double tanks. No one could even think to dive here in the Mediterranean with a single tank...
The max size for a tank was 10 liters, and the standard pressure was just 150 or 170 bar, so a single tank was way too small for doing any decent dive...
So all beginners did start with double tanks. Only 10 years later, around 1985, single tanks (15 liters at 200 bars) became common; I did buy my first single tank in 1989, when using doubles started to become "uncommon".

 

[Hartattack]

How about this, since @CT-Rich , @grf88, @tursiops, and @Marie13 have all attacked my advice, opinions, and thoughts on this thread—why not you come up to the Midwest [Mod edit] come over and dive with me and show me why all of your solutions are superior. Let's put our money where our mouth is, I'd be happy to dive with all of you and see your point of view.

 

[LFMarm]

Couple of thoughts (1) your SAC rate will improve significantly as you gain experience i.e., hours in the water, (2) pony bottles are just for emergencies so they will not fix your high SAC rate you are facing now, (3) management of stage/pony etc increases significantly your complexity underwater and may affect in a negative way your SAC, (4) pony bottles are a pain for travel.

Given all this, I would consider sidemounting or using larger tanks if you can while you gain experience and improve your SAC rate but would avoid a pony bottle.

I am new to scuba diving with only a couple dives under my belt. I am a little OCD and tend to pay attention to my gauge more than enjoying the dive as I am always worried about my pressure. I have a 13cf pony bottle. Would being a new diver and having the pony tank connected to my main tank for the piece of mind confuse me and be tougher for me starting out? When I started paramotoring, they recommended not flying with a reserve because it is more likely to accidentally deploy and cause more problems.