Qualifications of a DM

[TMHeimer]

This is about experience. The problem with a DiveMaster is you don’t need experience, certainly not in a range of conditions and dive styles (warm v cold, etc).

Agree. But everyone who is new at anything has no experience. In our course we had to DM a charter as if it was real. Give a dive briefing, lead divers, do the safety stop, etc. I guess the course could require that you do that more than once during the course, but that runs into even more time for the course and pay for the instructors teaching it.
Again I do disagree about experience in various conditions (warm vs. cold seems always to be the one everyone mentions). I want a DM to have experience where he/she works because that's what will affect me as a customer-- Experience in another place isn't a concern of mine.

 

[kelemvor]

They should change it to a mentor type program. DM's would still take the class as they do today, but after class they must work under a mentor for two years (or 600 trips) before taking on customers.

 

[TMHeimer]

They should change it to a mentor type program. DM's would still take the class as they do today, but after class they must work under a mentor for two years (or 600 trips) before taking on customers.

Interesting, but who's going to do 600 trips without pay in order to get certified? Well, actually some may, since many are stupid enough to DM for free or tips once they get the "gig".....

 

[boulderjohn]

They should change it to a mentor type program. DM's would still take the class as they do today, but after class they must work under a mentor for two years (or 600 trips) before taking on customers.

That would sure make them better. Let's make it even better! THey must have 2,000 dives to begin DM training and 16 years of internship in which they work full time for free before they are fully certified. That will guarantee that we have quality DMs sitting behind the instructor in classes, making sure no one drowns.

 

[drrich2]

I have no dive pro. credentials or training; my perspective is that of a recreational diver who, at one point years ago, considered pursuing a DM cert. to advance as a recreational diver. I didn't, but I think a lot of people do. I'd like to put forth a couple of ideas and see what you guys think; first, that we need to consider why people take the DM course (its purpose), then consider whether that purpose should be served in other ways.

I suspect these are the main reasons a recreational diver signs up for a DM course:

1.) En route to becoming an Instructor.

2.) Wants to guide dives professionally. May love diving enough to see this as a 'break even' way to be engaged in the sport.

3.) Wants to assist an Instructor in teaching diving, without the responsibility of being an Instructor.

4.) Wants to advance in knowledge and particularly skill as a diver, and thinks being trained to 'demonstration quality skills,' critical feedback and mentoring during the training dives, and possibly post-cert. time assisting an Instructor teaching will instill advance dive skills and some 'extra' knowledge.

It could be any or all these, but if your ideas about what DM training should require center on guiding group dives and assistant teaching, and many people taking the course are really just there for 4.), that's going to be a problem.

At least in the U.S., PADI dominates. The 'Master Diver' cert. isn't a course in PADI, it's like a 'degree' recognizing you've amassed a number of other courses, including some required ones. NAUI had a 'real' Master Diver course (which I've read was originally intended to instill Instructor-level knowledge except the teaching component), but NAUI seems to have a small minority market, particularly in mindshare in the U.S. Most recent OW cert. divers don't know what GUE is (much less Primer or Fundamentals). Advanced OW tends to entail moderate broadening of experience and knowledge, maybe skill. Rescue Diver is more about risk assessment and mitigation, and some rescue skills - not so much dive skills.

So a PADI rec. diver who takes OW, Nitrox, AOW and Rescue Diver may wonder 'what next?' Often, Dive Master is the answer...but should it be?

Here's a thought...make Master Diver a real course, in PADI and SSI, and make it a tiered system (as the current NAUI version may be too big a bite to chew for some people who're still interested in advancement).

Master Diver Level 1 - focus on precision skill enhancement - Peak Performance Buoyancy, horizontal trim, precision weighting management, etc... Focus on in-water dive skills, and supporting knowledge. Learn to trouble-shoot common gear problems and better handle in-water situations. Wrap in solo diver training to encourage independence.

Master Diver Level 2 - build on knowledge. Maybe focus on diversifying experience with varied setups - diving in cold water exposure gear, trying BP/W and side-mount, dry suit diving, etc... Some basic decompression dive training? Precision navigation?

Master Diver Level 3 - maybe aim for what I've read a GUE Fundies recreational pass certifies? Some training in blue water and deep, cold water diving?

What do you think? Would this system cut down the numbers of people signing up for DM courses?

Should DM be a broad grab bag for divers who want be better divers and/or assistant teach and/or guide group dives?

 

[boulderjohn]

As someone who had been reading ScubaBoard posts for 17 years now, I have seen remarkable trends over those years. Threads tend to come to consensus, but I sometimes see something curious in them. Here is something I find curious:

If the question of the thread is what are a DM's responsibility in leading a dive compared to the divers being led, the overwhelming consensus will be that the DM's only responsibility is to show people around and point out interesting stuff, which takes pretty minimal skill. The safety of the divers is totally on the divers themselves; don't blame the DM if you die during the dive!

If the question of the thread is posed by someone asking about becoming a DM, the consensus is that the DM is really just a glorified gopher who hauls tanks and is often not even paid for his or her work. You don't learn any valuable diving skills in the class, because the primary focus is assisting in instruction by making sure no one drowns while the instructor does the real work.

BUT

If the question of the thread is what are the qualifications to be certified as a DM, then, by golly, they had better have thousands of dives and a two year internship before being allowed to do those minimal and meaningless tasks.

​

 

[boulderjohn]

In contrast to what I just wrote in post #46, when threads on the responsibility of the DM in leading a dive come to the overwhelming consensus that the DM has pretty much no responsibility for the welfare of the divers, sometimes a small minority of posts are made by dive operators, and they disagree emphatically. When they hire a DM, they damn sure do expect that DM to be responsible for the safety of the divers, and they make sure the DMs they hire are capable of doing that.

Which brings me to the point I tried to make several posts ago. When a person gets certified as a DM, the next step in their career is to get hired by a dive operation of some kind. Before that dive operation puts that DM in a meaningful role, such as leading a dive where they are expected to be responsible for the safety of the divers under their supervision, that operation is going to make sure they are ready for that task. That means a careful evaluation before hiring followed by on-the-job training.

I have been on many dives where that on-the-dive training has been going on. In South Florida, for example, on many wreck dives the boat captain gets the boat in position near the wreck, yells "Dive! Dive! Dive!", and the DM plunges into the water hauling a mooring line attached to a float. That DM has to hit the wreck on descent and attach the line to the wreck. That is not taught in any DM program, so every new DM in that area has had to be trained on the job before doing that on their own. If that new DM does not display the necessary skills to work effectively in that role, then the DM's career will be short.

 

[TMHeimer]

Surprised no one has said either periodic recertification/testing or completion of some kind of continuing education credits to maintain recency.

Depends on what the continuing education is. PADI has a thing where you do stuff online once a year to keep abreast of new developments. I don't know what the penalty is if you don't do this. Doctors must keep abreast of new info. Teachers have "inservices" where you learn stuff. In all cases, if you don't do these things, you still keep your title... certified teacher, Divemaster, etc. But maybe you can't work, I don't know.

If you're talking about spending money and taking courses, there will be much blowback. I agree as well that this could become a continual money-maker for agencies.
You don't need to re-take a driver's test to keep your license (unless in some areas if you are over 85). Someone who is a bad driver, or over time becomes one (for some strange reason) is a hazard on the road. Experienced DMs & instructors would say that their continually working keeps their skills sharp. If you're not up to snuff in the first place you shouldn't have received DM certification.

Another angle to consider is people saying that receiving OW certification is merely a license to learn. You aren't an excellent experienced diver at that point.
I learned more in my first year teaching Band than in all my music ed. courses combined.
Now I know DMs have a different responsibility-- one of keeping people safe and alive. This is moreso during OW courses since those students aren't yet certified. As Boulderjohn points out, divers on charter boats are responsible for themselves, and the DMs really only responsible for general information.
If a DM is working on a charter and has very little or no experience, there will no doubt be things to learn. If it's his/her 100th charter on the same wreck, that's a different story.

 

[Edward3c]

If you want to see change, take a look at the International Association of Dive Professionals.

 

[SlugLife]

Happens everyday in everywhere.
I could never do the DG job no matter how much you pay me! It will shorten my life considerably to deal with certain type of divers every dive/everyday.

I certainly would not want that job, with the public. Especailly since it doesn't pay well, and various other issues when dealing with the public, and the random divers who shouldn't be diving.

They did not ask. They made a declarative statement and then started in at "their" task. I like using my tank position on my back to adjust my trim. It is the largest and heaviest item I dive with. Its position on my back changes my trim. Both of those DMs wanted my tank to hang of my ass and halfway down to my knees.

Another DM, with whom I had been diving with jumped into the soon-to-erupt malae (a pleasant malae, no strong words from me!) and ordered the offending DM to back off. My DG told the offender to leave my kit alone as Mark (I) was a really good diver and in perfect trim! That was Costa Rica.

At Kailua Kona, a former stay-at-home mom and then zero-to-hero instructor tried the same stunt. It did not go very far as the same scenario played out as above. I mention the lady's former profession and gender not to bash, just to indicate that she had not worked her way up from bilge snipe, deckhand, DM, and then instructor.

Another former stay-at-home mom who became an instructor-of-record at a large sporting goods chain store in California (zero-to-hero). She was teaching a deep class and evidently misjudged or mishandled one of her students. He bolted for the surface and died from his injuries. Who knows if a seasoned instructor could have handled the situation, or trained the student any better? I don't know.

I was in the store a few days after the incident. She looked like a semi had run her over. I asked if she was OK and she said that her training session over the weekend had not gone well. I learned from other sources what happened. The SCUBA program at that store ended shortly thereafter.

cheers,
m

Yikes, that's a nightmare! I would definitely forcefully tell those people to back off. There are far too many egotistical divers, who think they know a lot more than they actually know. There are also many subjective areas of diving as well.

For me to allow an adjustment by someone else:

• They'd have to be an instructor, in a relevant course I'm taking. Such as a sidemount instructor, adjusting a sidemount harness.
• Assisting me with something specific I asked for. For example, if I ask them about trim, and they help me reposition weights.
• They adequately described what they're doing before-hand, and I give them the go-ahead.

If they pass one of those checks, then by all means, why not take advantage of some "free" service and assistance.

However, the scenarios you describe is an absolute "hell no" to me. Nobody is touching my equipment because, that's a potential life-and-death issue. A tank as low as you described, sounds dangerous.

From readi gnthe OP of that thread's other posts, where he stated he acted as a DM for a other group, despite the fact that he was relatively inexperienced, I can only imagine that he talked up his experience quite a bit prior to the dive in question. This is not uncommon. It is easy to talk a good game, and it is fairly easy to hide one's inexperience during a dive when the conditions are good and the dive is not very challenging.

If you've seen that phenomenon quite often, that's fine to speak in generalities. However, I would prefer to avoid accusing specific people of doing things, we don't have evidence for.

They should change it to a mentor type program. DM's would still take the class as they do today, but after class they must work under a mentor for two years (or 600 trips) before taking on customers.

That sounds like an absurd amount of (unpaid?) labor. That's a quick way to kill an industry.