Qualifications of a DM

[Wibble]

Most local would not be able to afford the proper DM course but I have seen plenty DG managed to deal a lot of situations where lesser person would not be able to handle. They have my respect.

This is about experience. The problem with a DiveMaster is you don’t need experience, certainly not in a range of conditions and dive styles (warm v cold, etc).

 

[rick00001967]

After we had multiple discussions in the past and just recently in this thread:
I f*** up and I am ashamed
i want to pick this topic up.

I think its not new, that there are DM´s out there, which are poorly training. Without any diving knowlede, byciclekicks and just overall danger to themself or the customers.
I saw fresh DMs, worse then OWD students.

I dont like the idea of putting the dive limits higher. because 1. dive logs can be faked(and are faked!) and 2. i saw many DM´s with 60-100 dives which are just great. And i saw DM´s with hundreds of dives, which were just bad.

So in my opinion hard limits like #of dives or total underwater time wont fix the issue.
I think there should be a in water test. Without skills(or just some skills for taskloading?)
Before registering for the DM course, there should be a general check dive, which can only be passed, when diving safely and good enough to fokus on other stuff(eg. customer), instead of own bouyancy.

whats your opinion? You got experience with bad DMs`? how is it possible to fix the problem?(in theorie..)

i think the DM courses (and all other courses) already have well written standards. perhaps the issue is not with the rules but with the trainers that are certifying dive pros before they are ready.

that said, each certified open water diver is responsible for their own actions. the diver in the original post you are referencing understands this.

 

[Wibble]

i think the DM courses (and all other courses) already have well written standards. perhaps the issue is not with the rules but with the trainers that are certifying dive pros before they are ready.

that said, each certified open water diver is responsible for their own actions. the diver in the original post you are referencing understands this.

Are DiveMasters and Instructors not independently assessed?

If not, can you really trust the paper the ‘qualification' is written on?

 

[SlugLife]

quoted your post in my initial pos, so everyone can read it. As we all know, some only read the first post.

Awesome. Feel free to completely "plagiarize" (use/cut/paste/edit) my post too, if it helps you clarify the topic.

Many dive guides are not DM certified. They are simply there because they know the UW terrain and can show you the cool stuff. Personally, I eschew dive guides when I splash. I don't need or want them to show me the cool stuff as I like to explore on my own.

So the real question for me isn't the qualifications of a DM, but of the diver who feels they NEED a DM (or DG) to follow around like a sheep?

Initially, I didn't exactly choose to be a solo-diver, but these days I have a strong preference for it.

The goal of diving for most people, me included, is to have fun. It's not so you guys will approve of how I dive, which is shocking, I know. To me, being in total control is a lot more fun than a lot of the chaos I see. But, there's no doubt about it that many enjoy their diving in spite of being out of control. If their control is so poor that they are a "white knuckle diver", and are always on a precipitous drop or rise in the water column, odds are that they won't be diving for long.

So what's the goal when someone becomes a DM? Yeah: fun. They don't learn the science of trim and buoyancy, because frankly, the industry as a whole doesn't really understand it as that. They tell you that you'll figure it out in a hundred dives or so, when in reality a freshly minted OW diver can accomplish it easily. So why is everyone shocked when DMs don't have the buoyancy they seem to expect they should have? Personally, I think dody has beat himself up enough over this. There's no need for all of us to question his skill level, when it probably exceeds that of most DMs and probably instructors as well. I tell you one thing he's got going for him that all of could emulate: a lack of ego.

(Hijacked from the other thread)

I think this adds to my point that "Dive Master" is really the wrong name for a "Dive Guide."

 

[Diving Dubai]

This subject hits one of my buttons.

1. DM needs rebranding. Passing a DM course mean you've reached the entry level of dive pro. It doesn't mean you're suddenly a super hero
2. DM course are highly profitable for dive centres, especially when they laughingly turn over a course in 10 days. I personally believe it takes 3 months of mentoring, to expose a candidate to most of the situations they will face in the real world.
Maybe the course is 2 part. Initial cert where you're able to be a certified assistant and then Pt 2 where they're mentored and assessed with real customers and real dives

3. It should be an entry requirement for DM's that Tec 40 has been complete (insert your agency's Intro to tech course) far too many dive pro's struggle with the rudimentaries of dive theory

4. Make it easier to fail a student. Too many candidates expect the cert to be awarded just from attendance (the bare minimum at that) They want the bragging rights without putting in the work and gaining knowledge.

5. Require that Instructors take a further qualification before being allowed to teach DM. Too many Instructors take combined DM/OWI course and have zero experience guiding dives with real customers. How can they pass on experience to the students if they have non themselves

 

[rick00001967]

Are DiveMasters and Instructors not independently assessed?

If not, can you really trust the paper the ‘qualification' is written on?

if i understand your question.....all open water instructors go through a thorough evaluation process by a different certifier than the one that trained them. for example, i did all my training in my home town at our only dive shop. but my final exam and water tests were done on Grand Cayman with an instructor certifier from SSI.

however, all my preceeding DM training and final certification was done by my home dive shop. there is no independent evaluation fr this level. the agency is relying on its network of trainers to do their job according to the standards.

but you can see there is an incentive to certify your own staff right ? i am sure there are many shops who certify staff as a guide or DM and then expect those new pros to continue learning while on the job. this is no different than most jobs though. hopefully while they are learning on the job, they are being monitored quite closely.

 

[loosenit2]

Surprised no one has said either periodic recertification/testing or completion of some kind of continuing education credits to maintain recency.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Are DiveMasters and Instructors not independently assessed

Instructors are, by IE.

DM's certified by the Dive centre. It's no different from the BSAC, and I've seen some pretty shocking examples of people being certed as DL by the club instructors. One of the main reasons I gave up on BSAC in my region.

 

[The Chairman]

I think this adds to my point that "Dive Master" is really the wrong name for a "Dive Guide."

I guess it depends on the diveop and the person leading the dive. In the Keys, more often than not, your guide is an instructor or an instructor in training. They meet the legal definition of a DM, but almost always use the term guide. They really don't care what the common people call them, as long as they pay to get on the boat. They'll also tell you that they are there as a courtesy and that you should be able to conduct the dive all on your own. I am more attracted to the "Pool's open" kind of diveop, rather than one that wants me to dive nose to butt, following someone I don't know. I prefer to find my own whatzits rather than have them pointed out to me.

 

[ofg-1]

Dive Masters exist to solve the instructor/student ratio problem. You can have more students in a class if you use Dive Masters. Most of them are unpaid positions. Some dive centers dangle a assistant instructor or instructor course as bait to keep them interested.

Dive Masters can get insurance, or be listed on a store's policy. Some people call this an internship process, I have always viewed it as free labor. I have known Dive Masters whose skill levels range from better than I ever was to Oh my God hes going to kill someone. I am not sure what the solution is.