From pivot to perfect.

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As i said before, i am a DM in training.
I am always good weighted and i am fokused to have good trim.

Then the pool skill training started.
I use a 5mm without weigth in a pool.
There is no way i can do a fin pivot..
My trim becomes horizontal and my fins leave the bottom, when my upper body starts to ascent. Thats the way it should be right?
No not for the fin pivot..
So i have to add 2 extra kg to weigth myself down to the bottom, so i can do the fin pivot. That just doesnt make any sense to me.

Is your instructor having you do fin pivots? It makes no sense, especially as you don't need any weights. I'm assuming you can descent to the pool bottom and ascend to the surface using just your lungs, correct?

 

[Raphus]

Is your instructor having you do fin pivots? It makes no sense, especially as you don't need any weights. I'm assuming you can descent to the pool bottom and ascend to the surface using just your lungs, correct?

Yes of course.
I dont need any weigth.
Pool is 3-4m(10ft) deep.

My legs dont stay good at the bottom, when my upper body ascents. But thats how it should be..
So i need to weigth myself down, do to a proper fin pivot.
I dont care, that i need to do the task for myself, because i know how to stay in trim and be proper weighted, but it just highlights the problem in a OWD course.

The students needs extra weigth to do a skill that is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Yet counter productive.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes of course.

I was afraid you'd say this.

The students needs extra weigth to do a skill that is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Yet counter productive.

May I ask which skill the instructor is using fin pivots to teach? Is it this one in CW2 or another one?

10. Use low-pressure BCD inflation to become neutrally
buoyant. Gently rise and fall in a controlled manner,
during inhalation and exhalation.

Also are you saying that you don't need any weights when the cylinder is full or when it is empty? Or both? (where you are able to compensate for the swing in buoyancy with your lungs)

 

[FinnMom]

IMHO, the fin pivot is a stupid, moronic, evil, counterproductive, waste of time. It was the only thing I had trouble with in my OW class (which was 20 years ago when PADI did require them). Actually I never managed a textbook fin pivot, but my instructor let me slide.

The problem? When I inhaled, my whole body rose up. And when I exhaled, my whole body went down.

Boy I can sympathize!
CMAS still requires us to do the fin pivot and if properly weighted, having my head/upper body ONLY rise is probably the hardest skill they could have asked for me to demonstrate.

 

[Raphus]

I was afraid you'd say this.


May I ask which skill the instructor is using fin pivots to teach? Is it this one in CW2 or another one?

10. Use low-pressure BCD inflation to become neutrally
buoyant. Gently rise and fall in a controlled manner,
during inhalation and exhalation.

Also are you saying that you don't need any weights when the cylinder is full or when it is empty? Or both? (where you are able to compensate for the swing in buoyancy with your lungs)

I dont need weigth with a 5mm. If the tank is empty my breathing needs to be very shallow. So 1 kg for comfort is fine.
And i understand, that it might be good to have 1 or 2 kilos more then usual, so i can donate and i can be a bit negative when holding onto a panicking student.

So the extra 2 kg is fine for me, just not for the reason of doing a fin pivot.
I dont understand, why the fin pivot is used as a demonstration of neutral bouyancy.

Dont get me wrong, my instructors are good. I dont want to blame them. In general i am very happy.

The argument was: a new student cant hover directly, so its better to show them the fin pivot first. So i have to demonstrate it. After the fin pivot, they switch to neutral trim, which is fine.
Its just weird, that i purposely need to overweigth myself to show a skill that is not necessary

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I dont need weigth with a 5mm. If the tank is empty my breathing needs to be very shallow. So 1 kg for comfort is fine.
And i understand, that it might be good to have 1 or 2 kilos more then usual, so i can donate and i can be a bit negative when holding onto a panicking student.

So the extra 2 kg is fine for me, just not for the reason of doing a fin pivot.
I dont understand, why the fin pivot is used as a demonstration of neutral bouyancy.

Dont get me wrong, my instructors are good. I dont want to blame them. In general i am very happy.

The argument was: a new student cant hover directly, so its better to show them the fin pivot first. So i have to demonstrate it. After the fin pivot, they switch to neutral trim, which is fine.
Its just weird, that i purposely need to overweigth myself to show a skill that is not necessary

Thank you for being patient with me. There's a reason I'm doing this. With a nearly empty cylinder, your breathing needs to be shallow. I'd argue that you are slightly underweighted then. Now with adding 1 kg with a full cylinder, are you able to perform a fin pivot? I'd imagine that you hardly touch the bottom. Of course, you have to place that weight low to make you foot heavy. I'm shaking my head as I visualize all this, so I'm going to stop as this is .... just wrong.

I don't understand why the fin pivot is used as a demonstration of neutral buoyancy either, as it isn't. It is a demonstration of negative buoyancy combined with being foot heavy.

The argument that "a new student can't hover directly, so its better to show them the fin pivot first" is simply false. You may think your instructors are good, but they need to take off their horseblinders. I don't know what else to say. Today, I'm actually submitting a blog series to SDI on how I teach neutrally buoyant and trimmed, but I think some of the instructors who should read it, won't.

 

[Coztick]

i love the fact that you are really thinking about this.....many long time instructors don’t even bother.
For benefits sooner (as you noted), weighting must be done very early. Definitely prior to fin pivots.

in my classes, dry work begins with the trim position and dry propulsion training, breathing has been and is continually discussed. Once in water, weighting begins with no gear and breathing (in trim). Then breathing from longhose with no gear, learning how body position/weights affect trim. Ascend/descend in trim, no gear, off of longhose. This takes about an hour and lays the foundation for all other skills to be performed neutral, in trim and having fun!

remember the difference between trim and propulsion, they can affect each other. If your out of trim and you propel you’ll certainly go that way.......depending on lung volume.

Well, hindsight is 20/20.
The subject came up and it occurred to me that it would have been the perfect time to explore trim weights.
My OW class was done overweighted and kneeling to start. Sure, we learned buoyancy control but nothing about trim weighting. I could only assume everyone was supposed to be fin heavy.
It sounds like you've refined your own methods of teaching in trim and neutral from the start. Nice. It's what makes gravity disappear and scuba so easy.
Yes, any wasted propulsion to adjust trim will cause more gas consumption and fatigue.

Cheers!

 

[Coztick]

Thanks for the responses!
I understand pro's here have developed better methods of trimming the student.
This is more for those that still do the pivot to demonstrate buoyancy. You still have to get a diver neutral to trim them.
This is just a very minor deviation from the traditional method to trim the diver the minute they get buoyancy control.
As soon as the diver grasps buoyancy, they can be leveled off and never touch bottom again.
In the case of @wetb4igetinthewater , I can't believe an instructor would require an intermediate step be performed when the diver has grasped the concept and is naturally trim and hovering.
I guess this is also for the students that are expected to do the fin pivot...
I would elaborate but any discussion should be between student and teacher.

Cheers!

 

[Ayisha]

...You still have to get a diver neutral to trim them...

They actually don't have to be neutral to be in trim. This is one of the underlying difficulties. Someone can be quite negatively buoyant and still be in trim. This manifests itself in people adding trim weights in various places on top of the amount of weight they need just to be in trim, rather than just redistributing weight. They then "chase" neutral buoyancy throughout their dives, using the inflate/deflate often, and maintaining buoyancy by kicking.

What I see often is that many divers (from traditional type courses) have no idea what it feels like to be truly neutrally buoyant, and it is quite a revelation when they finally discover it.

 

[lowwall]

I wonder about the history of the fin pivot. All the other OW skills are either obvious (mask clearing, reg recovery, etc) or make sense once you understand the WRSTC standards were created by people who had transitioned from freediving (early emphasis on weight dumping) and expected most dives to be conducted from shore (snorkel requirement).

My guess is that it was a hack to demonstrate some kind of buoyancy control in the shallows in the days before BCDs. Trim would have been naturally foot heavy in those early days with no wetsuits, all weights on a belt and real rubber fins, so it might have made sense then. But it sure doesn't make sense now.