Lembeh - are we doing it wrong?

[Luko]

as I'm self sufficient as a muck diver. I don't really need help spotting,

well...
That's what everybody says before meeting a real dive guide from N/Sulawesi, Tulamben or Anilao. If you don't know where and what to look for you won't find it. .and if you haven't seen it before you won't find it either. Tell me how you can find by yourself a dragon shrimp or a siphopteron nudi?

(btw from the poster's description I guess this is Froggies. can you confirm or invalid my guess.)

 

[Luko]

Wow, you were patient to last six dives. If having travelled half way around the world and having spent sheds loads of cash to do so, a guide had a camera and didn’t show me very much, I doubt I would last one dive.

Lucky it wasn't me diving : I would have ended the first dive after 30 minutes, ordered the boat captain to go back at the resort, rushed into the manager's office and flamed him until he promised me his best-senior-über experienced-biospecialist guide...

 

[bintang_shrimp]

well...
That's what everybody says before meeting a real dive guide from N/Sulawesi, Tulamben or Anilao. If you don't know where to look for you won't find it. Tell me how you can find by yourself a dragon shrimp or a siphopteron nudi?

Well...I'm not into nudis to be honest. I like fish / crustaceans a lot more. And that's exactly what I said, I need someone to point out the general area to look, not babysit me the whole way and tell me how to set up my camera. In that sense the value of the local guide is in remembering where they've seen what in the past few days. So if someone can do that, I don't care if they have a camera or group size is 4, since I'm not dependent on hand holding the whole time.

I would try NAD someday, but considering the much higher prices, I haven't yet heard anyone raving that they found 10x the critters with them that no one else could find. If they didn't charge so much for rooms and single supplement I'd be more inclined to go there. I don't need a fancy resort when I'm diving and sleeping 24/7.

EDIT: I suppose if my first day is a bust, I can always just walk over to NAD for next few days and hire them for diving only

 

[Wingy]

I used to dive with Froggies when they were only on Bunaken and had a Belgian guy Benny running the place - I know he left way before the Lembeh op was on the drawing board.

I'd personally get together with your fellow divers, go see the manager as a group and express your concerns. In an already constricted market there's not a lot of room for new kids on the block to make mistakes. See if you can negotiate an outcome that doesn't require you having to decamp to another op as that's a hassle and a days diving missed.

I'm quite curious as to where the guide is from - AFAIK Froggies have sourced their guides from Bunaken village mainly. Had a mate dive with them two weeks ago on Bunaken and no complaints.

I'd also have to say sometimes we have to remember the ocean isn't Walmart. I like Lukos suggestion of a list of what you want to see but as always, nothing's guaranteed. Hope your trip improves.

 

[Luko]

And that's exactly what I said, I need someone to point out the general area to look, not babysit me the whole way and tell me how to set up my camera. In that sense the value of the local guide is in remembering where they've seen what in the past few days.

An that's exactly why I am stating that you are wrong (what do I know after 20 trips in Indonesia, 10 in the Phils being a macro photographer, hence not exactly requiring someone to set my camera ) ...and that you will discover.
What is true day 1 is not anymore day 2, because critters move you see hence rather than remembering the exact place/stone of where they are, the best guides know where to look for on which biotop. If I tell you that you will find a dragon shrimp on a black coral, even if I point you that black coral to you I bet you may not be able to see it before you have already seen one before.

FWIW this is a dragon shrimp.

I'm not even speaking of a cryptic Paron shrimp

or a sand camouflaged simplex shrimp less than 1,5 cm :

What about the humpback soft coral shrimp (6-7mm)

...or a hairy shrimp (around 5 mm)

 

[outofofficebrb]

Tell me how you can find by yourself a dragon shrimp or a siphopteron nudi?

How about a Lembeh sea dragon? My guide showed one to me and it looked like some type of sea grass or moss, even like a loose thread on clothing initially. Then when he was writing down on a slate what it was I looked closer and then looked through my macro lens on my camera and was blown away.

Well...I'm not into nudis to be honest. I like fish / crustaceans a lot more. And that's exactly what I said, I need someone to point out the general area to look, not babysit me the whole way and tell me how to set up my camera. In that sense the value of the local guide is in remembering where they've seen what in the past few days. So if someone can do that, I don't care if they have a camera or group size is 4, since I'm not dependent on hand holding the whole time.

I would try NAD someday, but considering the much higher prices, I haven't yet heard anyone raving that they found 10x the critters with them that no one else could find. If they didn't charge so much for rooms and single supplement I'd be more inclined to go there. I don't need a fancy resort when I'm diving and sleeping 24/7.

EDIT: I suppose if my first day is a bust, I can always just walk over to NAD for next few days and hire them for diving only

I am a little confused why you are going to Lembeh if you are into fish and crustaceans and don't need a guide to show you macro or super macro life and the entire approach you are taking. That can be had elsewhere for a lot less but I also feel like you will be missing a lot with that approach....Or am I missing something?

 

[Luko]

I am a little confused why you are going to Lembeh if you are into fish and crustaceans and don't need a guide to show you macro or super macro life and the entire approach you are taking. That can be had elsewhere for a lot less but I also feel like you will be missing a lot with that approach....Or am I missing something?

Same same here ...you would have been happier in Bangka maybe.

 

[bintang_shrimp]

An that's exactly why I am stating that you are wrong (what do I know after 20 trips in Indonesia, 10 in the Phils being a macro photographer, hence not exactly requiring someone to set my camera ) ...and that you will discover.
What is true day 1 is not anymore day 2, because critters move you see hence rather than remembering the exact place/stone of where they are, the best guides know where to look for on which biotop. If I tell you that you will find a dragon shrimp on a black coral, even if I point you that black coral to you I bet you may not be able to see it before you have already seen one before.

FWIW this is a dragon shrimp.
View attachment 533322

I'm not even speaking of a cryptic Paron shrimp
View attachment 533323

or a sand camouflaged simplex shrimp less than 1,5 cm :

View attachment 533324


What about the humpback soft coral shrimp (6-7mm)

View attachment 533325

...or a hairy shrimp (around 5 mm)
View attachment 533326

The beauty of muck diving is animals hide on specific other animals/features underwater...or they're randomly out in the open, and by now I've done 10 muck diving trips of a week each. I have a pretty darn good idea of where to look for almost anything I want to find.

It's true more pairs of eyes are better, but if you drop a guide into some site where he has no idea of a SPECIFIC place to look, his guess is as good as mine. His only value of experience to someone like me is remembering where he's seen something the day before, otherwise their odds of finding it are as good as mine.

EDIT: As a case and point to the above, every time I've asked for a pygmy seahorse or lembeh sea dragon, I magically get taken directly to them OR I'm told "sorry it was here yesterday must have moved". I have not seen a single guide consistently find exactly what I ask for with any high probability unless they already knew roughly where it should be.

Go try it next time, ask to see blue ring octopus and see how willing they are to give you high probability of finding it if they haven't seen them in a few days.

 

[bintang_shrimp]

How about a Lembeh sea dragon? My guide showed one to me and it looked like some type of sea grass or moss, even like a loose thread on clothing initially. Then when he was writing down on a slate what it was I looked closer and then looked through my macro lens on my camera and was blown away.



I am a little confused why you are going to Lembeh if you are into fish and crustaceans and don't need a guide to show you macro or super macro life and the entire approach you are taking. That can be had elsewhere for a lot less but I also feel like you will be missing a lot with that approach....Or am I missing something?

See my post above. Lembeh sea dragons are not found randomly every single day. They live around certain needle-like animals (forget the name now) but you can spend hours looking for one even if you know which rocks to look under, and there's still no guarantee.

On the other hand, on a recent trip to Anilao, we went directly to one rock out of 100s, and magically it's there. Later I saw several more diving groups go DIRECTLY from entry down to that same dragon. Is that no coincidence that 4+ guides from multiple unrelated shops somehow happen to "find" the same dragon?

I'm going to Lembeh because the animals are all there in one place. As far as price goes, it's not really more expensive to go to Lembeh, unless you stay in overpriced upscale resorts. Cost per dive is about same in Bali or similar places.

 

[bintang_shrimp]

Back to the topic at hand, diveUA please tell us how you resolved this with the dive shop. If they are refusing to handle it I may need to consider having a talk with their booking office and cancelling.