Cardiologist said no

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Aside from being a horrible analogy, it is technically incorrect.....the handguns, and many/most if the rifles, are semi-automatics, not automatics.

T...

Point...being told by a Health care professional...a heart specialist...based on his health background and recent testing what he should not be considering let alone doing...

Not arguable...not defendable...not to mention...not life insurable...

As a professional...being responsible for accurate...fully completed dive training registration forms...what's your recommendation to the OP...

Knowing what the OP has been honest enough to share...if I was an instructor...which I'm not...I wouldn't instruct him if he did have a physicians sign-off...when did $400. become that important...

Send him home...I'm sure his wife would be more than grateful...

''A man's got to know his limitations''...not my quote...but appropriate in the circumstances...

W...
 
T...

Point...being told by a Health care professional...a heart specialist...based on his health background and recent testing what he should not be considering let alone doing...

Not arguable...not defendable...not to mention...not life insurable...

As a professional...being responsible for accurate...fully completed dive training registration forms...what's your recommendation to the OP...

Knowing what the OP has been honest enough to share...if I was an instructor...which I'm not...I wouldn't instruct him if he did have a physicians sign-off...when did $400. become that important...

Send him home...I'm sure his wife would be more than grateful...

''A man's got to know his limitations''...not my quote...but appropriate in the circumstances...

W...
My recommendation was in post #17 and I agree with #19. The OP should get a second opinion from someone who knows something about scuba.
 
My recommendation was in post #17 and I agree with #19. The OP should get a second opinion from someone who knows something about scuba.

T...

DDM...in no way gives the OP a green light...if anything his response suggests otherwise...second opinion or not...

Caruso's post # 16...has the answer the OP needs to understand and follow...not searching for as many ''second opinions'' he needs until he's found someone to ''enable'' him...

Is that what we're here for...

What's more important...knowing something about scuba...or knowing something about the heart...

W...
 
What's more important...knowing something about scuba...or knowing something about the heart...
False dichotomy. The recommendation is both, not just one or the other.
 
A second opinion is just that, a second OPINION. Not a second "this is the law" reading. If the OP doesn't feel the original doctor's opinion of his health is correct, have someone else look at it.

You get a multiple people to look at a house repair, getting your car fixed, dive gear to buy. But the first doctor that sees you is the one and only one that can look at you and give opinions on what you should do?

There is a difference between getting a second opinion and searching for a doctor to just give you a sign off. I have no issue with a second opinion. Looking for a doctor that knows about diving, and not just having read a chapter about it in med school.

What I don't agree with is a doctor that doesn't know about diving, sees a little something odd and says "no" without actually understanding what they are saying "no" to. Too often these days the default answer is "no". Not out of knowledge but out of ignorance. And doctors do not know everything. Do you know what they call the doctor that finished at the bottom of his class? "Doctor". Yes, there are plenty of good ones, but they are not all good ones.
 
I always listen to my doctor's advice, but a doctor who is atuned to diving and medicine. I would certainly seek out a doctor who has such knowledge for a second opinion and talk to DAN.

In 1930, my grandfather was told by his doctors he would not live long due to cardiac issues. He outlived 9 doctors and died at the "young" age of 95.

In 1988 my cardiologist told me I shouldn't be diving despite a record-breaking run on the stress test (beating out two young Marines from Camp Pendleton). I haven't stopped yet despite five cancers!
 
I always listen to my doctor's advice, but a doctor who is atuned to diving and medicine. I would certainly seek out a doctor who has such knowledge for a second opinion and talk to DAN.

In 1930, my grandfather was told by his doctors he would not live long due to cardiac issues. He outlived 9 doctors and died at the "young" age of 95.

In 1988 my cardiologist told me I shouldn't be diving despite a record-breaking run on the stress test (beating out two young Marines from Camp Pendleton). I haven't stopped yet despite five cancers!

Almost sounds like one should get a qualified medical opinion, and then make a personal decision based on one's own calculation of pros/cons, risk/reward, and the ultimate certainty that our time on the planet is limited . . .
 
Now I can see why everyone was waiting for Dr. Ebersole's reply, as his answer is most helpful in making a good risk assessment!! I've managing risk fairly well most of my life, and I think that learning the art of managing risk is a life skill that should be taught throughout all formal and informal schooling. However, there's usually a dearth of reliable and useful information available from which to make much more than a guess, unless you want to devote more time than it is sometimes worth. Why so hard? Those without this skill are usually the ones offering up the advice, which often is either deficient, misleading, irrelevant, and obscures true gems like this one post. I have a few questions though to expand this answer just a bit, and then some background and opinions from me. But first, why his answer was significantly correct:

I found three articles that cover the METS requirements:
Achieving an Exercise Workload of =10 METS Predicts a Very Low Risk of Inducible Ischemia
T
his first full article covers just how important this is, in predicting the risks and also in improving your METS

Determining Heart Rates from MET Intensities
This covers a way to do the work so that you can use the heart rate to determine what your useful METS is in training.

Just from these articles and a few more, it is obvious to me that you should be able to KNOW that you can meet the guidelines he laid out. METS is extremely important, diving or not. I'd still like to know the effects of depth on cardiac health when virtually at rest, albeit at 90 feet.

Q - What are the reduction ratios various functionalities at different depths? Obviously, there's a huge difference in an experienced diver on a drift dive, trying to relax enough to end the dive with more air than the divemaster (>50 minutes w/reserve), vs. a new diver, scared close to panic, hunting for lobsters, actively fighting a current, or being actively chased. Yes, you want reserve capacity when you need it. But even at 50% o2 efficiency, an athlete is going to deplete most of his air in 15 minutes or less if swimming fast at depth. And since it take 4x the energy to go twice as fast, I'd get there half as fast, or use just twice the air. I guess I'm asking for the fitness aspect importance for CAD patients, and what aspects are at risk, if less fit.

Q - OTOH, how much less efficient are the cardiac arteries at 90ft? With a very low use of o2 at 90 ft, totally relaxed, ejection fraction shouldn't be much of a factor. ? But If stung badly, or a moray eel reaches for your hand or face, your going to panic for at least a few seconds, which adds a lot of stress and constriction, along with a good dose of adrenaline. Those that handle stress well, (and didn't get bitten), will likely be relatively unaffected. Those that don't relax though, are not going to have a good day and obviously would be stressing their hearts.

SCUBA vs snorkeling: I got into SCUBA after many years of snorkeling, mostly with NO partner. I'd do the stupid, worthless and dangerous hyperventilate to get my co2 higher, and o2 from 99% to 99.5%. Then I'd dive to 20-30 feet, and surface quickly when the urge to breath was too much. When in Cozumel once when I couldn't get to a good snorkeling site, they convinced me to do a shore dive. I quickly found that it was so much easier than the type of snorkeling I was doing, I'd never choose to free-dive again. In a few years, about 50 dives and certified open water, I'm now expert enough to think that know all I need to, and get myself into serious difficulty. Luckily I will likely always have a divemaster to try to limit that risk. Although I'm not stupid, my freediving by myself without understanding the co2 / o2 saturation factors, far exceed the risks I now take, SCUBA diving with heart disease.

In my case, although I've had two drug eluting stents, the two MI's I had, did minimal damage. I'm 71, my EF is still 55%-60, and slight occlusions haven't changed in over a decade. OTOH, I'm slightly out of shape right now, which could be remedied in a few months. So, I'd really like to know what effect that has, physiologically when diving. How much does being "out of shape", affect the risk for CAD patients? I think the METS articles I've included cover just how important this is--KNOW what your METS are, before you or I dive.

It's less about the depth than the immersion. Immersion changes the fluid distribution in the body and increases preload to the heart, which can then increase the strain on an already weak heart muscle. Add exercise to this as Dr. Ebersole mentioned, and the heart could experience strain that it would not see when dry.

Breathing gas density increases with depth which can increase the CO2 level in the body and slightly increase the upward and downward deflections in intrathoracic pressure with respiration, but if someone's cardiac status is so fragile that gas density could push him/her over the edge, then he/she probably should not be diving.

Best regards,
DDM
 

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