First cave dives

[beester]

A couple of my regular dive buddies are expedition grade cave divers, I have led then through these sea caves showing them the best bits (the low tight parts from a cave diving point of view) and they saw no need to lay line etc, and had no problem with the approach the local dive community takes to dive these sea caves.

Heya Tassi,

I'm not disputing anything you say. I believe you when you say that the sea caves/caverns in your area are safe to dive for recreational divers with some additional precautions. However this doesn't mean that all sea caves/caverns are like this, and it's difficult to evaluate the risks if you are not overhead trained.

I also sense that you (and others) think that posts by cave divers on this topic are maybe overly conservative, very strict... not taking into consideration the local aspects of the dives, overestimating the risks involved. Maybe you are all right, but there are reasons behind this conservatism. I've dived a lot of sea caves (both in Italy, Spain and some in France... ah yes there was this little thing in Cozumel too), and one is not the other. While some are totally fine for even beginning divers, others are really not, with pinches, silty bottoms, no place to turn around easily, extended... and you can't see from the entrance, what is what. So how do you evaluate as a diver that it's safe to do?

I read a message on scubaboard, and Tassi DD was saying "it's safe to dive in sea caves because they are not real caves" ? The local dive guide who has done this dive so many times, and says "trust me, just follow me it's very easy you will see"? A friend you know who has dived these sea caves for a couple of times an takes you along? Because you like to take risks and you only live once?

I rather have divers reading this, stop and err on the side of caution than roll the dice. Yes it will go right 99 out of a 100 times, maybe even more... but not every time.

So to all divers reading this topic, think about the following:

It's difficult to evaluate risks, without the necessary experience. How do you know this sea cave is safe to dive?
- Because someone else says so? NO stop!
- Because someone else has dived it 20 times without any problem? NO stop! It's not because something went well 20 times that the dive was safe... It only takes 1 diver to act funny or panick to totally change the ball game.
- Because the dive guide tells you to trust him, and he'll guide you and take care of you? NO stop! Yes the guide wants you to have a good time, but don't rely on someone to help you when the **** hits the fan.

Before you do a dive like this think about the absolute worst that could happen, and how you would react, things like:

- What if my light fails, what will I do?
- What if I lose the others, what will I do?
- What if it gets small and narrow, how do I turn around or back out?
- What if someone in front of me or behind silts up the cave/cavern, and I have 1 ft / 30 cm of vis, how do I stay in contact with the guide/other divers... or how do I get out?
- What if my mask gets kicked off by the diver in front of me, what do I do?
- What if my reg starts freeflowing, what do I do?

You might think I'm a bit of a party pooper... and no I'm not thinking about all these scenarios all the time, because I know how to handle them, they are not serious if you are prepared. The point is if you are prepared ;-)

 

[Griffo]

I've seen a trainee cave-diver on a course emerge from a sea-cave so distraught she said she'd never enter a a cave ever again. So while I personally never entered that cave, I assume that classifying all sea-caves as benign is a little unrealistic.

 

[sea_ledford]

On the topic of risk analysis, if that is your primary rationale for cave training to dive in, what is most of the time, glorified swim throughs, you have to realized that the vast majority of divers have little to no risk analysis abilities or experience. They completely depend on boat captains and dive guides to keep them safe, within the NDL and to not run out of gas, and tell them when and where it is safe to dive.

The same argument can be said of deep dives. "You can't take a recreational diver to 130 feet! What if they go out on their own and go deeper or stay longer and get into deco!? They have no idea what the risks are, you don't know what you don't know!"

But for some reason, that argument is rarely made. Maybe because deep diving is covered in OW classes, where overhead diving is mostly just glossed over.

I really do understand where the cave centric divers are coming from. Diving in a cavern in Florida is just the entrance to a cave and should be treated with the appropriate level of respect. Keeping yahoo OW divers out of the caverns is a difficult and important thing to do, and when things go badly, they go very badly and it has the potential of shutting down access to caves.

But most of these sea caves or caverns are not the same thing. Most of the ones I have been in and taken divers though have about the same risk matrix as swimming under a big boat. Is it over head? Yes absolutely. Are them more than 130 linear feet from the surface? Sometimes. Is there available light? Loads most of the time. Can a misplaced kick stir up silt and destroy visibility resulting in an extremely dangerous situation? No, it's sand not silt, and a high enough portion of the divers have such bad buoyancy control that at least one in a group is just pig-penning their way along the bottom. Can some of them be much more dangerous than they look? Of course! Some of them are even entrances to blow holes and if you dive it at the wrong time, you are going to have a very bad day. But the "is this cave a blow hole?" risk analysis wasn't covered in my cave class either.

However it is all on a gradient, and the dive that the OP is in seems much more like a cave than a swim through. Unless the video is just misleading.

 

[beester]

The same argument can be said of deep dives. "You can't take a recreational diver to 130 feet! What if they go out on their own and go deeper or stay longer and get into deco!? They have no idea what the risks are, you don't know what you don't know!"

Mmmm so your argument is because you can that it's safe? I've done a lot of stupid stuff, and I've been bitten a couple of times... 2 times very seriously. On a lot of those dives I thought my risk management was ok, well I can tell you it wasn't in hindsight and 2 times I got very very lucky.

There is no scuba police... everybody needs to make his own guess (because in many cases that's what it is ... just a guess, more based on feeling than real data) on how much risk he wants to take.

But I'll always react to these topics professing overhead diving (whether it's a real cave, a sea cave, a cavern, wreck penetration), specially when there is a bit of attitude "that it's not so bad, and I know what I'm doing". The simple fact is a real overhead is less forgiving than a virtual overhead (up to a certain point of course...).

How much time do you think a panicking OW diver needs to ascend from 130ft to the surface... I tell you if he inflates his BCD... he's going to be up in less than a minute, a real polaris rocket. 130 ft in a cavern... it's going to take him at minimum 3 to 4 minutes... if he does everything right.

But no scuba police... you do what you gotta do ;-)

 

[Imla]

Just for s***s and giggles.... try googling "Normalisation of deviation"... You might get some interesting reads.
And in the same gate... get Gareth Lockes book Under Pressure about human factors in diving.

 

[BlueTrin]

Hey 60 plus,

What is good air consumption and reserve planning in context of cave/overhead diving? What are the techniques you use to not stirr up silt in confined spaces? What are the navigational techniques you can use while diving overhead/confined spaces (wreck penetration, caves)? Can you please elaborate on this?

I've read some of your posts on this board. You seem to know a lot, for someone who claims to be just a vacation diver with less than 100 dives under his belt. You give your opinion on drysuit diving while never have dived a drysuit, you share your experience on decompression diving while never have done any real deco diving, you seem to know a lot about cave diving accidents, and how to mitigate the risks involved... and finally in a very funny twist you share your opinion on internet divers vs real divers... which is in this context very funny. So please share...

The reason I react so harsh is because I was you (well a much younger version of you)... about 12 years ago. I started diving in 1990 (when I was 14) but did less than 100 dives before I stopped. Then i started again in 2005, and realized, that I was a natural. I progressed from your equivalent of ocean diver to dive leader and advanced diver in 18 months, doing 150 dives in that time. I bought equipment, went on some holidays, and was taken under the arm of the most experienced diver (instructor) of my local CMAS club. I started wreck diving in the north sea and was very gun ho, doing progressively more and more penetration, taking portholes, catching lobsters... and all that. I experimented with solo diving, I bought a double set and used it without any training, I knew the risks (or thought I knew them) and I was becoming a rising star in my local club... the president of our club even asked if I didn't want to become an instructor after 2 years of restarting diving! I talked the talk... participated on a lot of forums, giving advice to new divers on a broad range of topics! ... yes I was something!

Then on a nasty summer day, I found myself inside a wreck, getting caught in monofilament (netting), at the worst time without any real gas reserve, and I realized at that time, that all that gun ho talking with a beer after a dive about "dying happy while doing the thing you love" is all ********! I didn't want to die! But I almost did. That put my feet firmly back on terra firma and I almost stopped diving because of it. (I even posted this on this board at the time trapped in net trying to ascend )

But it also slammed some modesty in me, and it started my still continuing voyage for more understanding. Slowly but steadily I gained more experience, changed equipment, changed some buddies, took more courses, realized some instructors were just big fish in little ponds and I needed experts to teach me, took more courses and dived dived dived. In the meanwhile I've met some world class divers, and I was lucky enough to have dived with some of them on projects.

Most of the time I encounter someone like you it's or a instructor from a small local dive club (big fish in a small pond) or a student (typically young and male,with a lot of confidence and in water skill), but it 's the first time I've encountered an older guy with, probably, a lot of life experience.

I realize that you probably feel a bit defensive, you just posted about a sea cavern dive, and we all let loose on you. Maybe you are right, and the cave/cavern isn't really that dangerous... but I'm quite sure looking at your posts, that you are overestimating your skill and ability to evaluate risk, and I just hope that the angry tiger that always lurks underwater will never bite you in the ass!

Cheers

PS: **** that's a long post... must be a slow day at work ;-)

Thanks for sharing your experience

 

[kafkaland]

If you absolutely feel compelled to dive in a cave without the proper training, equipment, and experience, please do it in a place where there is no risk that the cave will be closed when an accident occurs. We have lost access to too many places because of the reckless behavior of a few. Also, please let it be known that you don’t want your body recovered on case something happens. No need to put a recovery team through this.

 

[Esprise Me]

Tursiops # 33. I am not reckless as you post seems to suggest, I weigh up the factors and decide if the risk is acceptable. Occasionally and for a brief period I am willing to accept a higher level of risk. [...] I probably never will be cave trained because I do not like the increased risk of regular cave diving - if you do something often / frequently enough eventually something will go wrong.

So I actually kind of get what you're saying here. Take any activity with a 1% chance of a catastrophic outcome, do it 50 times, and your odds are up to a coin flip. What do you think your odds were of not making it out of that cave? What odds would you accept? How many cave dives does that pencil out to? Are you planning to stop before you hit that number? Or will you consider yourself experienced enough at that point to be safe?

Cave divers, what do you think are the odds of a catastrophic outcome in that cave for an untrained cave diver? For a trained cave diver? Is the multiplying of risk with repetition something that's discussed in cave diving courses?

 

[eelnoraa]

I think the real question is what kind of non zero odd are you willing to accept for a catastrophic outcome.

For a diver without proper cave training, the dive would have to perfectly to come out safe. As little as kick up silt can be deadly. Is this ok for you?

 

[60plus]

It is with some trepidation I post again on this topic. Today at about 13:00 a motorcyclist was airlifted to hospital after a crash about a mile from where I live, I have used the road regularly on a motorcycle on the way to a friends farm. Last night at about 22:00 2 friends of my son (who was present) were struck by a car whilst they were crossing the road on a pelican crossing. The girl only seemed to have cuts and bruises but the male was paralyzed from the neck down. We have had no further news today. This level of incidents close to home is unusual but it does indicate how random accidents are. I take a similar view of diving and life in general, bad luck can happen. Admittedly the more precautions you take and the more skills / training you have the less likely you are to have an accident. However this increased margin of safety is diminished each time you practice an activity that requires those skills. I am a qualified risk assessor (most experience for engineering workshops or on chemical / refinery plant). I am also a qualified LRQA Auditor. (ISO 9001 etc). I have also taught (I am a former university lecturer) health and safety, including working in confined spaces. These skills are transferable to diving and pretty well all other activities. Because I chose to enter certain caves on certain occasions in the company of certain people it does not mean I believe the level of risk in entering other caves in other circumstances would be an acceptable level of risk. Beester #51 asks a lot of questions, these are the same questions I asked myself before entering and continually throughout the cave dive. Some of the cave diving that is done not many miles from where I live (actually caving using scuba gear) is something I just would not do. I would not enter a tight cave, or a silty cave, or a cave with lots of turns and passages for example. Does that mean I think large clear water sea caves are completely safe, no of course not, it just means they have a level of risk I consider to be acceptable. I have previously refused to enter a swim through and a volcanic cave because they were too tight - another diver could not get alongside if assistance was needed, nor was there room to turn. In the case of the swim through, once entered you had to go right through, and in the case of the cave you had to go to the chamber at the end to turn. Its a bit like when I did wreck diving on my deep diver course. There were situations I was in that were acceptable because I was 1:1 with an instructor, had I been in those same situations in the middle of a queue of dodgy divers following a guide I would have been very concerned.