Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[boulderjohn]

Interesting try. So following your train of thoughts a spare second stage is superfluous too as is a BCD.

I don't think he is providing a train of thought. He is instead giving a definition of a word. I would bet most people think the word "redundant" means a second piece of equipment identical to the first, but that is not actually what it means. A spare second stage is redundant equipment by either definition, since you don't normally need it for your dive. A BCD would arguably NOT be redundant, since according to how scuba is taught today, it is an essential part of buoyancy control methodology.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
The extra “stuff” he was talking about was a a pocket containing a spare mask, a compass, an SMB/spool and a pony- all neatly stowed on my BP harness with no danglies. This is all equipment that I regard as essential redundancy on anything but the most casual/ shallow dive and have had occasions over the last 20 years to require the use of all of it. . . .

As I see it, the premise of "recreational" diving today is that, on the majority of rec dives that are done around the world, one can simply ascend if there is a problem. All the major training agencies teach the buddy system as a means for ascending in an out-of-gas scenario, and while there is room for improvement it seems to work well enough when weighed against the alternative of teaching every diver to carry a pony bottle. Something is not part of the "essential" rec diving kit if the diver can simply ascend from the average rec dive safely without it and otherwise return safely to shore or boat. I don't think that is limited to "the most" casual/shallow dive but rather just the kind of dives that the masses are doing out there day in and day out, on average, around the world. I think the majority of rec dives today are done in a divemaster-led group in the 60-100 ft range in tropical or sub-tropical conditions. That's the kind of diving that draws most people into the sport, so that's what dictates the "essential" kit--what the agencies teach. That said, it is not uncommon for dives to be exceptional in various ways and to varying degrees, militating additional safety gear and/or training. A compass is common for dives that require just a little self-sufficiency. An SMB is a good idea for just about any boat diving.

 

[chrisch]

@chrisch what redundant equipment do you feel is necessary and why?

It would depend entirely upon the dive and the team undertaking it. For example it is a generally agreed point that double tanks with a manifold are a redundant gas source, but this is only true if you can manipulate the valves.

For normal buddy diving I use and see no reason to change from basic kit the same as pretty much all of us learned to dive with. An AAS for your buddy and a buddy for me to share from. When diving alone I add a bailout (just grab a deco tank and reg).

Are there risks of netting? How many cutting tools should a person take? It really depends on the actual risk of entanglement doesn't it?

There is no right answer, my best shot is; the redundant equipment I take most often is my buddy. Why? Because I love diving with her

 

[HeliMech]

I'm a new diver and come from an aviation safety background. I can't
help but view the sport (rightly or wrongly) through a similar lens.

No plans to dive beyond rec limits or to deviate from the Law of Thirds.

I don't want the whole dive store hanging off me but the idea of a redundant air source appeals to me for all the obvious reasons.

I also carry a dive light, backup light (it's small), spool, tiny mirror, SMB and nearly useless plastic whistle. All this stuff (minus the whistle) fits in my BCD pockets with lots of room to spare.

If you have the desire, cash and it arguably gives you the ability to deal with additional contingencies why not?

There have been many cases where one diver's stupidity becomes another divers problem. Never know what that problem might look like.

I found the comment that some divers won't dive with anyone who carries a pony bottle on a rec dive interesting.

I'll likely buy one at some point. Hopefully I'm not shunned like the guy rocking the spear gun for self defense reasons on a training dive.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

When I used to free dive I carried one mask, two fins and a few pounds of lead. When I decided I wanted to stay underwater longer I got certified and added a tank, regulator and backpack to the mix. A couple years later I bought a BCD. Another year or two went by before I added a computer to the mix. I later got into deep wreck diving and all the gear requirements that go along with it. These days I am doing mostly recreational dives and carry only what is necessary to complete the dive.

In 28 years of scuba diving I've never had a gear failure, never come close to running out of air and never had to make a CESA. The only OOA situation I've been involved in was with a buddy who always dives with a pony. He was the one out of air. I make it a point to carry what I need to get back to the surface at any point during a dive. I can manage that without redundant equipment.

 

[tursiops]

@tursiops do you think those two items are ever redundant in an open water environment?

Depends on the dive.

 

[tursiops]

Interesting try. So following your train of thoughts a spare second stage is superfluous too as is a BCD.

That is YOUR train of thought, not mine.

 

[tbone1004]

Depends on the dive.

please elaborate

 

[NAM001]

I had to read the OP a few times before I posted. I know this will jack some jaws but her it goes. Basic Ow is training for shallow water diving. If it were for depths of 130 ft CESA would not be taught as a viable last resort. You say that is not true, OK. The whole OW training on average is in water not to exceed 60' and probably at finish of the class you may have hit 30' At those depths the fall back solution to a problem is to surface which can be done directly from shallow depths. Loose a mask and you don't need a spare you surface. Low on air? poor planning or poor buddy the answer is surface. At those depths normally you can not exceed NDL, because you are out/low of air before yo get there. and if you do then it is direct surface.

Now for many of you that dissagree I will concede that many of you teach a quality class, I would suspect that the classes many teach is what is needed to dive the local areas. So You FLA instructors probably do teach a much more comprehensive course than say some one from cornfield county in the mid west would, as it it geared for diving in open ocean waters with bot traffic. No slam intended, it is just the way things are. The problem for name comes when you start going deeper and are in waters that are habitated with traffic etc. The ability to safely surface in those areas are totally different than in so many other places so the training differs greatly. Standards are set to establish minimum content etc. What is put out, what is retained and what is understood and most importantly believed to BE WHAT IS NEEDED also varies widely depending on location instructor and waters available. Those aspects I have always accepted to be,,, what the instructor has the lee way to do above the min requirements. The absolute necessities common to all areas etc are what seams to be mandatory in the course.

Let me say that where I am located most classes are taught in waters that allow no boat traffic. Instructors like that because the liability risk factors are so few. Most of these lakes are 25-50 ft depth. I cant say for sure but I think instructors have a max depth limit for training of what 40' depending on agency. For those students the mass amount of information and skills to prove is more than enough for a student to handle with out adding on redundant gear and using it properly. They,,, for the most part,, do not have buoyancy control at that point. Most of them cannot ride a bicycle (maintain depth) and do a mask change. Consequently I see very few that can use a smb, change a mask, tighten a loose tank on a buddy, get out of a snag, or any of the so many other some what common concerns in inland waters let alone open salt waters.

I have always been a proponent for beefing up the AOW class to include requiring functional use of the redundant gear, SMB's cutting devices, masks, lift bags, gear stowage. Another factor which again I expect some flack is that with so many divers using jackets they are unable to functionally make use of the pockets. What goes in them gets stuck there till the BDS gets vented. So to much extent the gear that most shops sell new divers are not so suited for the storage of all this spare stuff and therefore not bought or taught from the start. That comment was not,, BTW,, a pitch for BPW's however they are designed for storing/ carrying such spare equipment.

The point when one seams to accept that they need redundant equipment is when they experience or come close to experiencing a less than acceptable situation and have to ask themselves "What if that would have been me?" I have never had a mask fail, but I don't get nearly the dive time that so many are able to get. I dive mostly in fresh water and not salt so salt water rot does not effect my gear. I dive salt water perhaps 2-3 trips a year. Again You FLA /GULF /COAST folks have an entirely different set of diving conditions and you teach to support them. Every dive you are dealing with potential boat traffic and other hazzards. The probability of having to stay at 20 ft far beyond the time of 3 min to wait for clear waters above is very high compared to many local waters where no propelled boats are allowed. I was just at a lake this last weekend and i saw perhaps 3 smb's and perhaps 1 spare mask(assumption from the leg pocket bulge). 2 of the smb's had no reels to be seen. (jacket BCD's) Safe to bet that there were no reels. The point is that if there is no place to put the stuff it is not carried. If you dont require it to be carried you do not teach it per min standards. Shorty wet suits don't have leg pockets to hold stuff like a mask.

So for me, the bottom line to this is that until you take serious the idea of spare equipment , from the start of OW, you will not have the supportive gear to handle the carrying of said redundant equipment. And that,, especially in warm water areas,, does not happen. Again with training what is not absolutely needed is not taught. Not to mention try selling a course and tell them they have to have 2 masks, fins with spare straps snorkel and spare snorkel strap. That beefs up the price of basic gear by perhaps 100 $, which may become a course expense deal breaker. That now puts gear sales being party to the equation problem. For new divers, the redundancy issue is covered by the buddy system. That system is only good if the buddy is near to help. Training philosophy is the buddy is always there. Reality is the buddy is often not.

 

[rgdiver1]

In the old days, scuba training was very different than it is now. You had to be reasonably fit, a good swimmer and pretty tough in general to get certified. Students could and did fail if the instructor didn't think they had what it takes. Becoming a certified scuba diver was a real accomplishment. Now things are very different. The scuba industry wants to get as many people as possible in the sport of scuba diving. Standards and training have been minimized, and things have been made to be as simple as possible. Despite this the accident rate in recreational scuba diving is very low.

If I were contemplating the dive the OP described, besides the basics including proper exposure protection, I would want double AL80's with two 1st and 2nd stage regulators, an SMB and most of all a good buddy with the same gear and training as me. One spare mask per team is adequate.